Japanese F4U Corsair

[JoeB]

Of course not. I will try to remember.

But let me also say that the term Jap is not generally accepted as offensive or derogatory. It seems to me the term was commonly used until WW2 when it became politically incorrect. This is quite different from Kraut or Wop as these were meant to be offensive from the start.
For me it is just a few less keys to tap.

With all due respect, just because you don't know that 'Jap' is considered highly offensive and derogatory doesn't make any difference, it's just your lack of knowledge. The term is considered highly offensive by Americans of Japanese origin. As far as fewer keystrokes, so is 'Paki' for people of Pakistani origin in the UK and that's likewise considered offensive by them. All four terms, with the other two you mentioned, were or are used by members outside an immigrant group to make sure the members of the immigrant group understood/understand they aren't fully accepted as 'part of the club' in that country, and people always take offense when it's implied they don't belong where they live or even where they grew up.

'Politically Correct' IMO is a way overused term, and is often used to imply that 'somebody else' is being 'too sensitive' about a particular term, when in fact the speaker would be highly sensitive about other terms, opinions, etc., almost everybody is, about something. Or to put it another way, some guy in a trailer park somewhere thinks it's 'PC' not to use n***er to refer to people of sub-saharan African origin. Calling something PC is, by itself, essentially meaningless IMO.

Joe

 

[ccheese]

Of course not. I will try to remember.

But let me also say that the term Ja** is not generally accepted as offensive or derogatory. It seems to me the term was commonly used until WW2 when it became politically incorrect. This is quite different from Kraut or Wop as these were meant to be offensive from the start.
For me it is just a few less keys to tap.

Kris

I got news for you, Kris. That term is very offensive to the Japanese, of which we have a couple
of members on this forum. I've gone back and changed as many of your posts, or reference to your posts
that I could find. If you have to refer to the Japanese people, please use the word Japanese in the
future.

Charles

 

[Civettone]

Thanks Joe and Charles. Like I said, I didn't know. I did however do some quick research before posting my previous post. And I notice that there are differences in the world. Apparently it is more offensive in the US and Canada. I have also read that Japanese people (as living in Japan) are indifferent to it.
But again, I merely used it as an abbreviation as was the historical reason for the origin of the word. I also think it is because I have read the word so often in historical sources that I never really got it has become deragotory. Strange thing though because when I read negro and nigxxx I am always shocked.
So forgive me my ignorance, and don't shoot me next time I forget. No bad intentions

Kris

 

[zoomar]

One of the reasons I first raised the "Jap" comment was that I noticed that the thread was veering dangeriously into a discussion of how the Japanese treated prisoners in WW2, which is inflammatory and would eventually lead to further arguments supporting prejudice against Japanese people as well as counter arguments about allied atrocities. That the Japanese treated war prisoners (and millions of others) criminally and horribly is a fact that needs no reiteration in a discussion of captured aircraft, just as the frequent American and Commonwealth brutality committed to Japanese prisoners and the USAAF's systematic firebombing of Japanese civilians need not be discussed. The Pacific War has been over for 50 years. Both sides did bad things for which they need forgiveness.

 

[razor1uk]

Being a a Beef eating Limey true patriot b'tard of Celtic, Saxon, Norman descent, I understand what we have done, killed, slaved, raped, plundered, diseased, resource pillaging walked/ran out of areas that we then said "Ok, we gave you no governing training, but this is yours now,, there you are, learn it youself." etc; I agree with zoomar in trying to head off the topical slant that was forming, although the method was a little off.

Most people know some of their national histories good bad facts, others know more, but most generally know even less, because they think they are the best, to support their/the accepted viewpoint.
What was considered ok terms in IRL, around your home, work, up-bringing or locality, isn't neccessarly even applicable around others, let alone online or abroad.
Lets keep it respectful, we don't wish to be the first block at the base of the pyramid of events that leads to WW3/WW4 (or WW5 ...depending on your view on economics war).
It's the 1st decade of the 21st Centuary, lets not ourselves hasten the inevitible coming conflagration (roughly every Centuary since 1100's there's been a big war before its mid point). I try to keep any derrogitory opinions to myself, because I'm human, and we all have some, but my general respect for normal people ensures I don't voice these if I can help it, and neither should we.
Rant over.
PC, I'm amazed that in the UK ( glad) we don't yet have a Political Correcness Czar/Office of Political Correcness, then again sometimes PC Spin makes it so hard to say something that cannot be read/interpreted too many ways, loosing the meaning of what could be expressed easier with less offence.

 

[lesofprimus]

Zoomer, ur high and mighty attitude is a waste here.... The atrocities did happen, on both sides, and not talking about them doesnt change that... "Lets not talk about it and we'll make believe it didnt happen" is tnot the way we do things around here...

The Japanese DID eat Allied servicemen, and whether or not the thread is about that subject or not, if the subject comes up we talk about it...

This site is about the sharing of historical information, and as seen above, some people here do not understand the horrible lengths that some of the Japanese went to during the War....

If u dont like the subject matter of a given thread, go to another thread...

 

[zoomar]

Lesofprimus,

You don't need to get so bent out of shape, but the topic of this thread was captured aircraft. I have no problem discussing all aspects of history in a respectful manner. Japanese treatment of captured servicemen (or vise versa) is a valid subject for discussion, Perhaps, a new thread more directed to that topic would be the appropriate place to have that discuission.

 

[B29WereWolf]

I would like to do some models of these airplanes in captured colors. It's a really great and interesting side to the war.

 

[lesofprimus]

I noticed that the thread was veering dangeriously into a discussion of how the Japanese treated prisoners in WW2, which is inflammatory and would eventually lead to further arguments supporting prejudice against Japanese people

Im more bent outta shape by ur comment above than anything else... Trying to protect the Japanese culture all by urself??? The self-proclaimed message board watchman???

Gimmie a frickin break pal...

It aint ur job with 193 posts to be so very concerned where certain threads are headed...

Perhaps, a new thread more directed to that topic would be the appropriate place to have that discuission.

The last time I checked, we were surviving here long before u showed up to spread such holy guidance to a bunch of morons on a message board... In other words, MIND UR FUC*IN BUSINESS... If a thread needs to get back on topic, a MOD will surely pop in and say as such...

 

[zoomar]

It aint ur job with 193 posts to be so very concerned where certain threads are headed...

Oh, excuse me. I was unaware one needed to have posts in the thousands to be taken seriously here. THat's what I get for offering an olive branch.

 

[Gixxerman]

One of the reasons I first raised the "Jap" comment was that I noticed that the thread was veering dangeriously into a discussion of how the Japanese treated prisoners in WW2

I just want to point out that my "some people" comment was entirely related only to those individuals who took part in eating other people.

As for the idea that a swift death by decapitation was seen as 'noble' or 'honourable'?
Well, it's not really so unusual.
Europeans thought so too a little further back in history, if my history lessons were correct I recall being taught that a French swordsman was often employed in England to carry out that type of sentence as they were at the time the most skillful at it (Tudor times?).
Few would relate that sort of thing as 'typical French behaviour' these days.

Anyways, it was never intended as a comment about Japanese people generally.

razor1uk was entirely right, 'we' all have national histories with dark and horrible corners none of us today would approve or applaud.

 

[lesofprimus]

Oh, excuse me. I was unaware one needed to have posts in the thousands to be taken seriously here.

You're excused, now lets get back on topic...

 

[lesofprimus]

As far as I can tell from a 20 minute search, theres nothing on the net besides the one pic posted above that documents a captured F4U...

 

[Matt308]

Oh, excuse me. I was unaware one needed to have posts in the thousands to be taken seriously here. THat's what I get for offering an olive branch.

Zoomar, any more of your sarcastic BS and I'll give you the Trap Door of Doom. Keep it civil. Your supposed olive branch reeked of excrement. No more.

 

[Alex Smart]

Hello,
Happy New Year to you all,

For some time I had looked for details on Allied Aircraft that were captured and used or tested by the Japanese in WW2.
I did see and have paper copies of the Hellcat( tail number "29" ) in USN and Japanese markings, it seems they put the red markings on the wrecked a/c to be used to mislead our airmen as we did with mock-up a/c on false airfields.
There were at least 2 US Navy/Marine Corsairs that were photographed ( VMF-123 - side number "61" and VBF-83, as well as an Avenger ( tail number "81" ) and a Helldiver( used as the Hellcat, red markings on upper surfaces only ) both US Navy/Marine a/c.
Will try to find papers later.
Also Hawker Hurricanes and Blenheim's were used as were Hudson's ( some may not have been captured as the Japanese did build copies as they also did with the Dakota ).
Also IIRC the DC-5 eventually ended its days with the IDFAF.
All for now
Alex

 

[GrauGeist]

The Japanese had a license (prewar) to build the DC-3 and it was manufactured by Showa and Nakajima as the L2D - Russians built the DC-3 under license as the Lisunov Li-2.
Nakajima also built DC-2 aircraft under license as well.

There were also the captured P-40Es used by the 50th Hiko Sentai based at Rangoon, too.

 

[Alex Smart]

Hello again,
To continue from my earlier post.

From the June 2002 "Captured Aircraft" section in the Japanese Aircraft Forum. In response to my correspondence I received a reply from a John MacGregor dated Sunday 23 June 2002. It quoted pages 139-141 of the book "Nihongun Hokakuki Hiroku" in which there were photos of two F4U-1's in original US markings, taken after capture. John suggests that in his opinion they were of the same aircraft and not as stated two different aircraft.
1 - "61" of VMF-123 captured on 16th February 1945.
2 - of VBF-83 captured on the 18th March 1945.
It is possible that he is correct, however if the dates given are correct then it follows that they are indeed two different aircraft.
So with a little research on line I found the following.

16th February, 1945
VMF-123
F4U-1D - 82344 - USS BENNINGTON(CV-20) - 2Lt. Robert M. Cies - O-026780.(ABMC = Missouri - MIA).FoD 17th February 1946.
F4U-1D - 82346 - USS BENNINGTON (CV-20) - 2Lt.Wallace. R. Hathcox - O-031918.(ABMC = Alabama - MIA).DoD 16th February 1945.
F4U-1D - 82297 - USS BENNINGTON (CV-20) - 2Lt. Harry Bearlund - Safe.

25th February 1945
VMF 124
1 - F4U-1D - 57595 - USS ESSEX (CV-9) - ?
2 - F4U-1D - 57400 - USS ESSEX (CV-9) - ?
3 - F4U-1D - 57335 - USS ESSEX (CV-9) - ?
4 - F4U-1D - 57318 - USS ESSEX (CV-9) -?
5 - F4U-1D - 57251 - USS ESSEX (CV-9) - 2Lt. D. Carlson - POW/Mia ? ( not listed in ABMC or DPAA).

18th March 1945
VBF 83
1 - F4U-1D - 57719 - USS ESSEX (CV-9) - Lt.jg. Warren O. Sigman - O- 145511- ( ABMC - Florida = MIA ) - FoD 19th March 1946.
2- F4U-1D - 57603 - USS ESSEX (CV-9) - ?
3 - F4U-1D - 57715 - USS ESSEX (CV-9) - ?
4 - F4U-1D - 57625 - USS ESSEX (CV-9) - Lt.jg W. F. Galnor - POW/Mia (?) - (Not listed in ABMC or DPAA).
5 - F4U-1D - 57471 - USS ESSEX (CV-9) - Lt. James J. Stevens - POW/Mia (?).

So unless details of the serial number or another photo of a/c "61" comes to light we are it would seem, still looking
All the very best
Alex

 

[CORSNING]

German F4U Corsair, captured after a daring trench raid (1917)

..............................................................................


Joseph Dutant posted this on Pinterest.

 

[GrauGeist]

German F4U Corsair, captured after a daring trench raid (1917)

View attachment 526205



..............................................................................


Joseph Dutant posted this on Pinterest.

Clave has done many fantastic renderings, both historic and fun-fictional.
He has a huge thread here on the forum with a good many of his works.

 

[CORSNING]

GrauGeist,
What is the title (are the titles) of Clave's thread. It (they) would definitely
be worth the viewing sir.

Jeff