JAS 39 Gripen is growing up....

[GTX]

Gripen E Fighter Officially Joins The Swedish Air Force

The Gripen E multirole fighter has now been delivered to the Swedish Air Force, as the service continues to strengthen itself to face off potential Russian aggression. The Gripen E multirole fighter has now been delivered to the Swedish Air Force, as the service continues to strengthen itself to...

www.twz.com

 

[Lucky13]

I'm looking forward to see how it'll act with the Rolls-Royce EJ230 engine....
If I remember correctly, the EJ230 have a thrust of 22,000lbs without afterburner, which the F414 has with, the EJ230 push it to 27,000 with the afterburner, the Gripen will become even more zippy!

 

[GTX]

I'm looking forward to see how it'll act with the Rolls-Royce EJ230 engine....
If I remember correctly, the EJ230 have a thrust of 22,000lbs without afterburner, which the F414 has with, the EJ230 push it to 27,000 with the afterburner, the Gripen will become even more zippy!

It won't happen at all unless someone is willing to pay the developments costs

 

[Lucky13]

I wouldn't be surprised....unless they'll want the sword of damocles hanging over their heads, never knowing if a sale will fall through because of some people's greed, saying that "no, we won't let you sell your aircraft to those, we want their business!"....

 

[GTX]

Still takes a lot of money and time to pay for development, installation and testing of new engine. Besides, the engine isn't the only item at risk here.

 

[Lucky13]

I'm sure that my former employer has a few aces up their sleeves, I'd be very disappointed if they didn't!

 

[GTX]

I'm sure that my former employer has a few aces up their sleeves, I'd be very disappointed if they didn't!

Who is going to pay for the development?

 

[Lucky13]

Who is going to pay for the development?

The sale of extremely "potent" mountain dew!
I'm positive that they've read, studied, the British Phantoms and their Spey engines, as a few of my old colleagues are big aviation geeks, plus hot rods etc., etc., beside....who says that they're not already working on it, since they've already had a spanner or two thrown in the works regarding "unsuitable" sales.
Good times ahead I hope!

 

[Lucky13]

JAS 39C/D vs E/F cockpit....

 

[GTX]

I'm positive that they've read, studied, the British Phantoms and their Spey engines,

Hardly relevant. It still comes down to someone being willing to pay for the development.

 

[Lucky13]

Hardly relevant. It still comes down to someone being willing to pay for the development.

I think it is, because somewhere in there, costs and everything will be, plus I figure that these former colleagues of mine know what they're doing....

 

[Glider]

I think it is, because somewhere in there, costs and everything will be, plus I figure that these former colleagues of mine know what they're doing....

I also believe that it is relevant.

A for the cost. This would probably be shared between the engine and airframe developers. When you are talking about an order of this magnitude then this also reduced the development cast per unit. To this you can add increased overseas sale potential of an aircraft that doesn't depend on the USA for approval and the business case is strong.

Regarding development. This isn't a recent idea, its been around for a while and I am confident that all parties have a good idea as to what needs to be done. Finally, how aircraft are developed has changed significantly over the last 40+ years and modern computer modelling give very accurate estimates as to the performance impact of any alteration.

Put it together and I believe that giving it a new engine is a viable alternative.

 

[Lucky13]

The Gripen could become our eras P-51 Mustang!
British heart like the Mustang, Phantom and Apache....
Come on SAAB/Rolls Royce, get yer finger oot!

 

[GTX]

I also believe that it is relevant.

A for the cost. This would probably be shared between the engine and airframe developers. When you are talking about an order of this magnitude then this also reduced the development cast per unit. To this you can add increased overseas sale potential of an aircraft that doesn't depend on the USA for approval and the business case is strong.

Regarding development. This isn't a recent idea, its been around for a while and I am confident that all parties have a good idea as to what needs to be done. Finally, how aircraft are developed has changed significantly over the last 40+ years and modern computer modelling give very accurate estimates as to the performance impact of any alteration.

Put it together and I believe that giving it a new engine is a viable alternative.

To get this to be viable you would need all new Gripen E/F buyers on board. This has not happened:

• Sweden is going with the F414-GE-39E (RM16) and GKN is already heavily invested int he engine both from a parts manufacturing and an MRO perspective. Moreover, Sweden is only getting 60 airframes at this point
• Brazil has 36 on order (~10 already delivered) with all getting the RM16 so no desire to change there and to wear the cost of the development
• Thailand has 12 on order all with RM16s and again wouldn't wear the cost of an engine change
• Ukraine is looking at between 100 - 150 but again. would presumably like to stay in line with other operators, especially the Swedes and indeed, I suspect they may initially at least use GKN for support as is the case with all exisiting Gripen A-D operators with the earlier RM12 engine. Unless they were to pay to be different I can't see their funding a new engine development.

This is simple economics guys. Unless someone is going to pay for the development it will not happen. Neither Saab or any engine manufacturer is going to pay for it out of their own funds unless they have a customer wanting it.

 

[Lucky13]

Who paid for upgrade from the C/S to the E/F, I don't know how much larger 414 is compared to the 404....
The E/F is a fare bit larger than the C/S...

 

[GTX]

Who paid for upgrade from the C/S to the E/F, I don't know how much larger 414 is compared to the 404....
The E/F is a fare bit larger than the C/S...

The E/Fwas paid for by a combination of industry (Saab, GE, Honeywell etc...) and also FMV (Sweden's Defence Materiel Administration) I believe. It was somewhat of a bet on the future with Sweden's Svenska Flygvapnet wanting something to replace their C/Ds and an expectation (hope) that exisiting A/B & C/D operators would also upgrade along with new orders from the likes of Switzerland, Finland and others. I believe they were hoping for a market of between 300 - 500 but alas that has not happened. Looking at just the home market, Sweden originally purchased 204 A - D versions but now are only procuring 60 E/Fs (and even that appears to have been a laboured buy).

The Gipen has also had a lot of controversy especially on the costs front. Despite being perceived as a low cost platform, in reality (at least when air forces have had competitions), it has often been shown to not be. Now there is a lot to dig into to this and far beyond the scope of this thread, but it is a fact.

Given this and the missed opportunities, I seriously doubt anyone is going to pay for a new engine variant. It would be just too risky and not cost effective.

Don't get me wrong, I don't dislike the type. In fact, think it deserves to have done much better and indeed should be seen as the modern day successor to the F-5 series. Alas, that has not happened.

BTW, re the different engines, here are some stats:

 

[Lucky13]

See how this goes....

"Bombardier confirmed that the talks are under way after Saab chief executive officer Micael Johansson said in recent interviews that the company wants to expand production capacity of the multirole supersonic jet outside of Sweden. Canada is among the countries that might be able to assemble the aircraft, he said. "

Sweden's Saab considering Canada for its Gripen jet assembly | CBC News

 

[GTX]

See how this goes....

"Bombardier confirmed that the talks are under way after Saab chief executive officer Micael Johansson said in recent interviews that the company wants to expand production capacity of the multirole supersonic jet outside of Sweden. Canada is among the countries that might be able to assemble the aircraft, he said. "

Sweden's Saab considering Canada for its Gripen jet assembly | CBC News

Part of Saab's ongoing attempts to woo Canada away from the F-35. I don't think it will work. Canada will likely stay with the F-35 but it is something not politically palatable to say in the current environment.

 

[Lucky13]

Time will tell, I wouldn't be surprised if it did, at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if it didn't either! I'm still thinking about Avro CF-105 Arrow and the TSR.2 when following this and what probably happened behind the curtains that caused those two to be cancelled, wasn't the TSR.2 to be swapped for F-111 (wasn't a couple or so airframes built for the UK nearly finished?) which never happened?
With Brazil putting together 15 of their 40 Gripen at Embraer's Gavião Peixoto factory, plus Sweden and Ukraine signing that Letter of Intent for 100-150 of its domestically produced Gripen fighter jets to Ukraine, I'm positive that Canada is watching this closely, especially now that SAAB need a second production line!
Plus, the feeling I have from working for SAAB, we see those who buy the Gripen more like partners than customers, without the chain and ball that seems to be attached to the F-35, you can't do this and you can't do that without permission....
I'm curious to see what they pull out of their sleeves next after the AI tests....

Either or, I'm glad that the Gripen and the Lightning II play for the same team!

 

[Lucky13]

Saab exploring Gripen production in Canada as Ottawa weighs alternatives to full F-35A acquisition | Flight Global https://share.google/hD0rJPr4TasE9O1Bm