- Thread starter
- #241
JAS 39 Gripen is growing up.... (9 Viewers)
- Thread starter Lucky13
- Start date
Ad: This forum contains affiliate links to products on Amazon and eBay. More information in Terms and rules
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I remember George Will as a conservative commentator. I think he appeared regularly on various mainstream political talk shows that were on Sunday mornings. Libs vs conservatives, especially a show called the "McLaughlin Group". I remember liking him. I haven't seen him in years. Is this a synthetic version of Mr. Will?
- Thread starter
- #243
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Gripen's superior situational awareness mean the pilot has the ability to see the unseen, making "stealth" design irrelevant. "The operator flying a stealthy fighter will think he has stealth as an advantage, but he no longer has that advantage. Gripen, along with its sensors, will make his stealth design irrelevant, independently and collaboratively," Halmetoja says.
Jussi 'Miyagi' Halmetoja, Senior Operations Advisor, Air Domain · Saab
Jussi 'Miyagi' Halmetoja, Senior Operations Advisor, Air Domain · Saab
ThomasP
Chief Master Sergeant
re
"Who is this fella?
None of the following is meant to political in bias.
George Will was a long-time (since before the Reagan era at least) supporter of Conservatives/Republicans until just before Trump's first election, after which he became an Independent. He also publicly announced that he was going to vote for Biden in the 2020 election and for Harris in 2024.
I actually saw an interview where he stated on camera that he planned to vote for Biden, and I was really surprised that he would say it so openly. It was as surprising to me as when Dick Cheney endorsed Harris.
Whether the video used AI or not I cannot say, but it was definitely heavily edited for continuity. It may just be that he is getting old (he is 84) and less smooth in his live presentations. I just checked and he has stopped doing his public speaking tours, and is currently 'only' writing a couple of articles for the Washington Post each week.
"Who is this fella?
None of the following is meant to political in bias.
George Will was a long-time (since before the Reagan era at least) supporter of Conservatives/Republicans until just before Trump's first election, after which he became an Independent. He also publicly announced that he was going to vote for Biden in the 2020 election and for Harris in 2024.
I actually saw an interview where he stated on camera that he planned to vote for Biden, and I was really surprised that he would say it so openly. It was as surprising to me as when Dick Cheney endorsed Harris.
Whether the video used AI or not I cannot say, but it was definitely heavily edited for continuity. It may just be that he is getting old (he is 84) and less smooth in his live presentations. I just checked and he has stopped doing his public speaking tours, and is currently 'only' writing a couple of articles for the Washington Post each week.
special ed
1st Lieutenant
- 7,062
- May 13, 2018
It does say "Sound or visuals were significantly edited or digitally generated"
I suspect significantly.
I suspect significantly.
- Thread starter
- #246
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
- Thread starter
- #247
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
The title is completely wrong and disingenuous. They try to make out that EW systems are a 'replacement' for 'stealth' while failing to acknowledge that EW has always been complimentary to low observability. In fact, the 'bogeyman' for many pushing the Gripen, the F-35, has an extremely comprehensive EW system.
The reality is that the combination of technologies/techniques/tactics that is commonly referred to as Stealth or Low Observability (LO) is nothing new. Almost as long as there have been fights, people have been looking for ways to gain an advantage over their counterparts. When we were relying on visual detection methods only, we relied on technologies such as camouflage or misleading paint schemes or tactics such as diving out of the sun. When radar became more prevalent, the idea of flying below the radar gained popularity. Now days, when we are applying these new LO technologies we are doing so because they remove some of the limitations of the past – therefore a modern combat aircraft with modern LO technologies applied is able to fly at medium altitude which increases range and also reduces pilot fatigue or potential for attack by guns/MANPADs. So in essence, modern LO technologies are not in fact compromising a platform, rather they are in actual fact expanding its potential/capabilities/usefulness!
To go even further, one needs to revisit the concept of the OODA loop (OODA loop - Wikipedia) - the operator (pilot or just as equally SAM operator or Tank Commander or Infantry soldier or Submarine Captain or…) who is able to Observe the enemy first, and who are able to Orientate themselves first and then Decide faster before finally Acting, all faster then their enemy, will win the engagement.
So what does this have to do with LO/Stealth? Well, if the enemy can't see you or if they are not able to fully discern which way you are headed or whether you are friend or foe until it is too late then that could provide the few extra minutes or even seconds necessary to get in a first shot. The OODA Loop is what it is really all about here!
Finally, not who is in the interview - a spokesman for the Saab Gripen - this is nothing more than a marketing ploy.
Last edited:
MiTasol
Major
I agree but the simple fact is that, just like Putin caused Sweden and others to join NATO, the current US administration is causing everyone who used to buy American to look at alternatives that are not at the whim of who is in power in the US. Buyers need vendors that they can trust to deliver and want fixed price contracts that do not suddenly escalate.
Last edited:
That only works if the platform in question does not use any US sourced components and the Gripen (be it the C/D or now E/F) does not fall into that category. It is another false narrative the likes of Saab keep trying to push.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
What a sad state we're in from where we were.
True but as I have said before replacement of the F414 will only happen if someone is willing to pay for the development costs and so far, no-one is showing any intention of doing that. Remember to qualify an aircraft for a new engine is not as simple as bolting it in and say ing it fits and looks good.
- Thread starter
- #254
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Does anyone how they paid for the conversion to the Spey engines on the Phantoms for the RAF and RN?
I imagine that they'd do the same thing with Gripen, replace the fuselage like they did with them Schmokers....between buckets of coffee instead for tea!
I imagine that they'd do the same thing with Gripen, replace the fuselage like they did with them Schmokers....between buckets of coffee instead for tea!
I understand that the British Govt paid BAC to do most of the work. It was more than an engine change though the engines were the major part. For just the engines though, BAC ended up having to redesign the entire rear fuselage (The Spey was shorter but wider than the J79, which meant that the British Phantoms' rear fuselage had to be widened by 152 millimetres (6 inches). The position of the afterburner also meant that the rear of the fuselage had to be made deeper.) and also incorporate larger intakes. At the end of the day the development cost for the changes to accommodate the new engines and other equipment meant that the per-unit price eventually ended up more than twice the price of an F-4J.
It would cost millions, probably hundreds of millions to do and take quite some time. It is technically possible but someone has to pay and wait for the development. Saab will not do this for free. Right now the orders/potential orders for the Gripen E/F are:I imagine that they'd do the same thing with Gripen, replace the fuselage like they did with them Schmokers....between buckets of coffee instead for tea!
- Sweden: 60 - 70 airframes on order and ~3-4 already delivered - highly unlikely to pay for such a development
- Brazil: 39 on order with ~11 delivered already - will not pay for such a development
- Thailand: 12 - 24 airframes on order - will not pay for such a development
- Ukraine: Potentially unto 150 airframes (not no formal order to date) - highly unlikely to pay for such a development
- Thread starter
- #256
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Well, it wouldn't be the first time that SAAB did something drastic to one of their aircraft, like their '35A "Short" and "Long" when they used the Rolls Royce Avon 300(?), which with afterburner was one of longest jet engines at the time, I think that it was extended 150mm or something like that....
Mind you, that wasn't much of a modification compared to what they did to the '21!
Seeing that Rolls Royce and SAAB been in bed together before, I'm curious as to what they're up to....
Plus, Gripen has been modified quite a bit in size already, so who knows what they had in mind when they did this last E/F
reconstruction, did they have that EJ230 in the back of their heads when doing it, the fuselage ready accept it (or a larger
more powerful engine in general) , not to mention that AI thing, which is more electronics than anything else....
Maybe a kettle in the cockpit, we do like our coffee!
️
Mind you, that wasn't much of a modification compared to what they did to the '21!
Seeing that Rolls Royce and SAAB been in bed together before, I'm curious as to what they're up to....
Plus, Gripen has been modified quite a bit in size already, so who knows what they had in mind when they did this last E/F
reconstruction, did they have that EJ230 in the back of their heads when doing it, the fuselage ready accept it (or a larger
more powerful engine in general) , not to mention that AI thing, which is more electronics than anything else....
Maybe a kettle in the cockpit, we do like our coffee!
️Those aren't quite the same as the Gripen situation. For the J-21R, it was Sweden's first real indigenous jet fighter and right at the start of the jet era so is hardly relevant here. For the Draken they had a customer willing to pay and some useful production quantities - I believe Sweden alone purchased some 382 "long" Drakens.
You don't just design a modern jet fighter with a different engine in mind, just in case. Someone has to pay for said design. Moreover, even if you felt it was possible and wanted to do it, one still has to do the actual development and testing - this is what costs.
- Thread starter
- #258
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Well I think it is, I mean they started off with the DB 605B and swapped it for the de Havilland Goblin II, if this isn't a major engine swap I don't know what is (I'm pulling your leg here
), it might have happened when the pyramids still looked like new, not long after the third crusade and Terry sported his first moustache!I don't think that it was any more or less challenging to swap a V12 for jet egg, probably more as they didn't have the same help as we have today with all them computers.
- Thread starter
- #259
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Volvo Flygmotor RM6 B or C, some size of the bl**dy thing!
It isn't a question of more/less challenging when it comes to the J-21R. As already explained, it was a totally different set of circumstances back then.
Regardless, this is a numbers game and unless someone (a customer) is willing to spend the money to pay for the development, there will be no re-engining and that will only happen if they have sufficient demand/quantities. The only scenario I can see where this happens without the larger numbers is if the US were to suddenly ban the sale of F414s to the likes of the Swedes and I seriously doubt that will happen.
