SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Our first AI pass (as in pass/fail).
JAS 39 Gripen is growing up.... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Lucky13
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- #402
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Admiral Beez
Major
Considering that all of about 320 Gripens have been produced since 1987 the Ukranians may be waiting until the 2040s before they receive anywhere near the 150 they want. Unless Ukraine makes them themselves.
airdave
Airman
Here's one I created last year.
MiTasol
Major
Do not rule out a "Ukrainian" factory in a NATO country that is not pro Putin.
Admiral Beez
Major
If Canada wants any Gripens we may need to make them ourselves. And maybe some for Ukraine.
MiTasol
Major
Canada and several NATO countries have existing aircraft factories and trained staff so would be good for supplying to Ukraine. Brazil is already in production so would also be a Ukraine source candidate. Brazil are also historically experienced at scaling production of aircraft they manufacture so could probably move from 8x5 to 24x7 production very rapidly.
Steamed_Banana
Staff Sergeant
- 1,114
- Sep 29, 2025
It seems like out-sourcing manufacturing to customer nations might have more than one purpose for Saab (i.e. not just a selling point). It may be a way for them to scale up production.
MiTasol
Major
That plus the more the US puts handcuffs on spares support, and steals products they have sold to other countries so that they can use them themselves, the more Sweden's attitude gains traction. Being your own spares support for even 50% of your needs beats having 100% reliance on a supplier that is getting more unreliable and more restrictive.
Steamed_Banana
Staff Sergeant
- 1,114
- Sep 29, 2025
... and could turn on you on a whim. Totally agree. plus the knock on effect of both jobs / economic boost in your own country with technology transfer.
MiTasol
Major
For Americans the already evident loss of jobs designing and building defense products that are exported should be of concern.
The fact that all the gulf states and India are now purchasing Ukrainian instead of American or Russian defense systems and training is a clear indication that America and Russia are now perceived by those countries as way behind the eight ball in modern air defense systems and their operation (and/or unreliable suppliers with too many strings attached).
Russia is certainly still up there with Ukraine in most modern military electronic tech but is, like America, becoming recognized as an unreliable partner/supplier and their anti drone and missile systems are, like Americas have proven recently, clearly not up to the job..
I can see the day when various NATO and other countries develop and start exporting electronics that replace existing on board units for weapons like the F-16 that currently can only be purchased from the US. From some of the descriptions of various SAAB products that appears to be already happening but the wording is usually subject to interpretation so is probably just sales hype.
Given that Ukraine is one of the world leaders now in EW, drone and threat detection electronics it is highly likely that they will soon emerge as a source of plug in replacements for existing American electronic defense tech, and that those replacement units will be much more advanced/capable, and available without strings attached, than the equipment they replace.
They have a great incentive to develop modules that remove the American administrations ability to prevent the use of weapons Ukraine and other countries own but are not allowed to use.
EDIT - It appears that Finland is now stepping into an area that the US previously dominated. The big question is - are the components of American or Chinese manufacture?
Finnish defence giant has tech 'Australia might be interested in'
The company that provides much of Australia's satellite surveillance for real-time disaster management may also soon be sharing its defence technology, as Finland becomes the latest European country to seek closer ties on security.
www.abc.net.au
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Steamed_Banana
Staff Sergeant
- 1,114
- Sep 29, 2025
it's time for Europe to start making silicon chips
If said products are still of US origin (e.g. the F414 in the Gripen E/F), one still needs licences to produce even parts or else risk major implications. One also needs to ensure you have the technology to produce said parts - assembling an aircraft from supplied parts/kits is a different matter than producing some of those said parts with the latter often being the harder task. One also needs to make sure it is economically viable in most countries.
Brazil might be assembling their aircraft and might be making some of the structure but they won't be making the subcomponents. Don't get misled.
Look here to get an example of the mix of subcomponents and the various companies involved:
Saab JAS 39 Gripen - program supplier guide | Airframer
MiTasol
Major
That is why I indicated that being able to produce 50% of the parts instead of 0% is still a significant advantage.
MiTasol
Major
Brazil might be assembling their aircraft and might be making some of the structure but they won't be making the subcomponents. Don't get misled.
Look here to get an example of the mix of subcomponents and the various companies involved:
Saab JAS 39 Gripen - program supplier guide | Airframer
www.airframer.com
Yes a lot of those sub-components are made in the US or by US companies but there are also a lot of non US components. Changing many of them would not be difficult if there was a non US equivalent and that would almost certainly result in a minor weight increase but the biggest drawback would be lack of interchangeability which would not make it impossible. I did work for one operator who had a mixed fleet of DC-9-32 and -33 aircraft. Among many other similar inconveniences the plumbing used two completely different hardware systems. Every time we had a hydraulic or oxygen or other plumbed component change the part came from store without the fittings (but with the seals) so you had to remove the fittings from the old unit, add new seals and then fit them to the component. Time consuming yes, an additional operational cost yes, a pain in the butt yes but impossible, no.
And yes there will continue to be things where it is more convenient to use US parts but there is now a new joint purchasing group consisting of most NATO members and a number of other nations which has the task of finding non US supplies for military equipment. So far there is no indication of what their priorities are but I would not be surprised if offering US companies funding to manufacture off shore or to relocate to Europe happens or funding is supplied to EU and other manufacturers to develop drop in replacements for current US components. Both of those reduce the US manufacturing base and come at an additional cost but that outweighs single sourcing from an erratic source which is the reason the new grouping exists. The other thing they may do is trade rights - if the US wants to use EU and other patents/products then they must, as part of the deal remove certain manufacturing restrictions on certain US patents/products. With the size of the group they have enough purchasing power and control of enough intellectual property that means this is not impossible. Remember that two years ago the creation of such a grouping would have not only been considered totally impossible but for it to be up and running and funded already would have been the biggest joke on earth.
Given a generation in drone warfare can be as little as a month, and that Ukraine and European NATO members are now some twenty plus generations ahead of the US, the group do have significant leverage on this subject, as well as on multiple EW and other fields, and it is all combat tested and works. With very few exceptions, what the US has was combat tested in the gulf and found more than severely lacking. And what did work cost millions to stop the modern equivalent of a dime store weapon.
You only have to see the footage from the Iranian recon drones flying undetected and unchallenged over the US embassy and military assets there to know how far behind the US are.
Given Ukraine's ability to adapt any weapon it would also not surprise me if Ukraine suddenly started firing missiles of their own design from American designed launchers that they cannot get ordnance for. Such missiles would have improvements based on years of actual usage of the launchers, and the launchers would also have improvements gained from the same combat experience.
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Steamed_Banana
Staff Sergeant
- 1,114
- Sep 29, 2025
US business and political mindset in recent years is based on the idea of being "Too Big To Fail" which is definitely going to be put to the test. There is nothing inevitable or irreplaceable about the US defense industry, Europe is far more capable than the Yanks assume (the fact that a tiny country like Sweden is competitive at all speaks volumes), so are Pacific Rim countries like Japan and South Korea. China obviously. Countries like Brazil and India, Thailand and Vietnam are clearly on their way.
Admiral Beez
Major
Exactly. If the US goes totally bonkers in refusing licenses for its military applicable tech, then SAAB is the least of anyone's concern, since there are now thousands of US military aircraft on foreign service in need of spares. The US companies still need the cash from their tech used in SAAB's Gripen.
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- #419
Lucky13
Forum Mascot
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Volvo Flygmotor participate in developing the 414 engine, or am I thinking about the previous variant? 
Volvo Flygmotor (now GKN Aerospace) were involved int he RM12 version of the F404 that is in the Gripen A-D. They were not involved in the development of the F414-GE-38E in the latest Gripen E/F.Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Volvo Flygmotor participate in developing the 414 engine, or am I thinking about the previous variant?
