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You callin me funny?!!
Erich and Nik, I must submit to your far superior resources than mine. My only take on the Stuka is that if the plane was so bad, the design poor, the power awful, why was it kept on operations throughout the war? It had to have some redeeming value about it. Yes there were "Stuka parties" and it was at times, meat for the butcher but there just was something that kept it flying (besides engines).
I think it did well, considering.
The firepower factor alone can easily account for any perceived differences in Stuka and SBD vulnerability.
I mainly agree, this situation somewhat resembles 'Spit outclassed Zero' in that there might be a general tendency to conclude something based on general reputation of each plane in different theaters. But in Spit v Zero case there were real meetings showing a surprisingly different result than the standard reputations would imply; whereas here we just can't say for sure.Hm, I don't see how you concluded that. In your last post, you seemed to leave that question entirely open ...
With regard to the SBD's success, note that the Spitfire VB used in the desert had two times the firepower of the A6M2, and the cannon-armed Hurricane had four times the firepower. Additionally, the western fighters were armoured, had protected tanks and featured a bullet-resistant wind screen, factors reducing the effect of the Stukas' return fire.
The above passage helps to also spread more light on why Germany embraced the DB as a primary component of their airforce while other nations did not.
Do we need this type of posting?That´s precisely the sort of tale sold by the Soviet Department of Mythology Affairs regarding their ultra-overrated IL-2 "Shturmovik".
Also you have the other allied fairy tale, the one that affirms the Stuka became obsolete "early in the war"....go tell Pinocchio stories to kindergarten kids when tucking them into bed
Could it be that there was enough LW fighters around to escort the Ju?: shock:Also Erich hit the nail, how come that "superb" soviet air force that allegedly re-emerged from 1943 through the end of the war proved uncapable of wiping out the presence of "obsolete" Stuka units operating in the eastern front....
What is with this use of the word 'allied'?Following such allied logic then the B-17 and B-24 were "obsolete" considering the period of time prior to mid-1944 when they flew deep into Germany without fighter escorts and were slaughtered by the Bf 109s and Fw 190s.
I respectfully disagree and think it's actually a theme that runs across most if not nearly all debates about plane characteristics v operational results. In this case there are in fact some 'plane' differences between Ju87's and say SBD-3's (speed, agility, fwd and rear firing armament, etc) that suggest the SBD might be more survivable. The problem is judging how significant those differences would really be to outcomes against a given fighter opposition. So it's not about 'fuzzy doubt of machines' but rather reasonable doubt about the actual effect of particular plane differences on combat outcomes.You fallacy in the Spitfire vs. Zero and the Hurricane vs. Zero threads (where you should keep it!) is that you look at the results achieved by men in their machines, and then use that to fuzzily doubt the quality of the machines.
I respectfully disagree and think it's actually a theme that runs across most if not nearly all debates about plane characteristics v operational results. In this case there are in fact some 'plane' differences between Ju87's and say SBD-3's (speed, agility, fwd and rear firing armament, etc) that suggest the SBD might be more survivable. The problem is judging how significant those differences would really be to outcomes against a given fighter opposition. So it's not about 'fuzzy doubt of machines' but rather reasonable doubt about the actual effect of particular plane differences on combat outcomes.
In this case we don't have comparable outcomes to say the SBD's apparently better qualities against fighters would really make much difference in a given situation (either that SBD's would survive better than Ju87's in ETO/MTO situations as they were, or that Ju87's wouldn't have survived as well as SBD's in PTO situation as they were). Whereas in the Spit/Hurricane/Zero case we have a real outcome that at least casts doubt, to the open minded IMO, whether the plane differences held up as making the Spit 'outclass' the Zero, or 'Hurricane a better fighter than F4F' etc. were really that important in determining outcomes, though I agree that doesn't tell us which factors were most important in their exact rankings (more subtle plane differences, pilot factors etc).
I tend to think in this case the difference in survivability among Ju87, SBD and Type 99 in exactly the same cirumstances wouldn't have been dramatically different, but it's possible they may have been different. I believe the main point is not to make statements as if of clear fact when speculating about such things, which in at least this case you seem to agree.
Joe
Hi Nikademus,
Hm, I don't see how you concluded that. In your last post, you seemed to leave that question entirely open ..
With regard to the SBD's success, note that the Spitfire VB used in the desert had two times the firepower of the A6M2, and the cannon-armed Hurricane had four times the firepower. Additionally, the western fighters were armoured, had protected tanks and featured a bullet-resistant wind screen, factors reducing the effect of the Stukas' return fire.
The firepower factor alone can easily account for any perceived differences in Stuka and SBD vulnerability.
However, if we don't know the number of opportunities for large-scale dive bomber slaughter both in the desert and in the Pacific theatre, there is actually nothing we can learn from the number of Stukas shot down on such occasions anyway.
Nik, you may have part of the puzzle. I totally forgot how obsessed Hitler, Goering and such were with dive bombing. So that would be one major reason for its continued operation and the failure of High Command to recognize its obsolecence.
That point you may be mistaken on is the failure of other nations to develop DBs: as the previous posts state there was the SBD, the Vengence, etc. Other nations did not ignore the dive bombing concept but instead recognized its limitations. Germany and the Stuka were a litmus test for the DB for all nations and the Allies caught on real quick. You don't bring a knife to a gunfight. This is only my opinion.
Hi Erich,
>I still go back to the Panzerjäger staffeln of SG 2, 3 77 as examples who had a staffel of Ju 87G's and did terrible work on Soviet armor, and yet the crews time after time sortie after sortie did their work, where was the Soviet A/F ? even in the final weeks of the war. Soviet AA was responsible for 9/1-ths of the losses known.
Henning (HoHun)