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being an aircraft designed for poorly conceived specifications
"Now a dive angle of 90 deg is a pretty palpitating experience
Barracuda (which was dive-bombing capable as well, though I understand the expected attack mode was to dive, level out and then make a torpedo run).
Since the question if the Stukas we are looking at were actually armoured (and to which degree) is of overriding importance, a detailed discussion of the 8-wing-gun fighter versus the 2-nose-gun fighter is not going to help us much, though.
That doesn't mean it couldn't have done better against the A6M2 the SBD-3 faced. The rear guns of the Ju 87D had a 50% higher rate of fire than those of the SBD-3, and the A6M2 had only 50% of the firepower of a Spitfire, and 25% of that of the four-cannon Hurricane.
The SBD-4, 5 and 6 had twin Browning 30's plus two cowl mounted 50's while the comparable Ju-87D has two fast firing rear 7.92's plus two wing mounted 7.92's. Do you consider the two 'equal' or 'one clearly inferior'??
And how do either perform with a very nimble fighter (even compared to Yak, Laag, Hurricane or Spitfire?) with 20mm cannon plus two 7.7mm shooting them at close range?
Also, the versions up to (but not including) the Type 52, that were in operations from Pearl Harbor through Midway, had two 7.7mm nose guns plus two 20mm cannon. The later version Type 52 had three 13mm (one nose/two wing) plus two 20mm in the wing. How does that translate to 50% of a Spit and 25% of a Hurricane?
Well, then my observation that the Ju 87D's opponents fielded heavier firepower than the SBD-3's should have some relevance to the assessment of the two dive bombers' relative vulnerability
But the 'observation' seems to require more proof points?
As I see it, the one thing that we can say for certain is that the SBD-3 tended to face unarmoured, unprotected, low-firepower fighters while the contemporary Ju 87D met well-armoured and protected fighters of generally superior firepower and speed.
That same 'unprotected, low fire-power Zero had its way with aircraft much more formidable that either an SBD or the Ju 87, as well as far better armed and armored than either.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
My point is that the examples are parallel, and there are many similar examples. On the *Stuka* case, now the discussion has gone on to much detail about armor weights, and rear gun rates of fire etc. This is all interesting and getting the particular facts right is important, but any attempt to quantify how much those facts would or wouldn't affect actual Ju-87 and SBD vulnerability to fighters, is still almost completely speculative IMO. *Like* establishing from the best sources what the relative theoretical speeds of Spitfire V and A6M2 were can be an interesting and somewhat factual exercise (the 'somewhat' comes in the fact that measures like speed were not always the same in operational conditions as official stats, whereas say armor weight would be). But saying how, if really much at all, such a speed difference influenced combat outcomes is much more speculative. So it's an *analogy* between two cases, and I think a valid one applicable to many other such comparisons.So it's not about 'fuzzy doubt of machines' but rather reasonable doubt about the actual effect of particular plane differences on combat outcomes. (My emphasis - HoHun)
Basic text comprehension, again - my comment was referring to your "Spitfire" example, applied clearly stated to the Spitfire, and I didn't mention the Stuka with a single word.
That would be only for the Type 52c of which ~90 were built.Also, the versions up to (but not including) the Type 52, that were in operations from Pearl Harbor through Midway, had two 7.7mm nose guns plus two 20mm cannon. The later version Type 52 had three 13mm (one nose/two wing) plus two 20mm in the wing.
Hi Nikademus,
Roger that - you could even have beat me over the head with my own post in the "Centreline Armament Thread". The Spitfire armament was even worse than the Hurricane armament since the outer guns were really very far from the centreline.
Since the question if the Stukas we are looking at were actually armoured (and to which degree) is of overriding importance, a detailed discussion of the 8-wing-gun fighter versus the 2-nose-gun fighter is not going to help us much, though.
The Betriebsanleitung lists the standard Ju 87B-2, and the Ju 87B-2 "with armour". That might be simplified language, but the "with armour" version had its weight increased by 130 kg. I don't think that in June 1940, Stukas were considered for the Schlachtflieger role already, but I might be wrong.
The type overview Ju 87D lists "basic armour" in the column "Variant and differences" emphasized in bold type. "Basic armour" doesn't sound like ground attack armour, and that it's listed in the "differences" column appears to indicate that the B was not equipped with basic armour off the factory lines. The Betriebsanleitung for the B-2 leaves open the possibility that it was retro-fitted, though.
It might have had increased armour, but the RAF fighters had greatly increased firepower for certain.
That doesn't mean it couldn't have done better against the A6M2 the SBD-3 faced. The rear guns of the Ju 87D had a 50% higher rate of fire than those of the SBD-3, and the A6M2 had only 50% of the firepower of a Spitfire, and 25% of that of the four-cannon Hurricane.
Well, then my observation that the Ju 87D's opponents fielded heavier firepower than the SBD-3's should have some relevance to the assessment of the two dive bombers' relative vulnerability
I think it's rather difficult to determine any difference at all since there is no comparable situation which shows the success of both types in similar circumstances.
As I see it, the one thing that we can say for certain is that the SBD-3 tended to face unarmoured, unprotected, low-firepower fighters while the contemporary Ju 87D met well-armoured and protected fighters of generally superior firepower and speed.
'Seems'? Excuse moi, but to me it *seems* these statements of yours are appearantly based on nothing. Where are the bloody facts....?
It`s just kept being repeated that the Stuka had some sort of mythical vulnerability, while the SBD had some sort of mythical survivability. The Stuka was 'slow'. It had 'poor armament'. It was 'not so rugged'. 'Not so survivable'. Not invented here.
Claims were not supported by any facts, references or serious sources so far, basically most claims in this thread *seem* to have no relation to the technical facts - actual speed, actual defensive armament, actual level of armoring the plane had - just personal bias and preconceptions is present.
[/quote]It`s a pointless excercise, nothing can be learned from it by anyone.
Back to specifics of SBD's and Ju-87's the rear firing gun of the Ju-87's in notable high loss cases was mainly a single gun with cyclic rof ~1500, later on (frm ca. '42) double barrel gun with rof ~3000. The SBD-3 had a pair M2 .30 calibers, cyclic rof~1200 per gun (faster rof than M1919 ground Browning .30's or M2 .50 a/c guns); and as noted the SBD had a much heavier fwd firing armament which in some noted cases was relevant (eg. SBD scout sections escaping outnumbering Zero attacks at the Battle of Santa Cruz, claiming Zeroes in the process: they did escape by acting like 'fighters with guns at both ends', even though those claims don't check out).
(Re: Nik, I share your interest in the USN v French combats at Casablanca, but again that wasn't really intense numerous, or necessarily totally determined fighter opposition, ie. mixed emotions of the French fighting Americans though trying to do their duty as they saw it). So I'm on you general side of the Stuka SBD debate, but I doubt it's a closely quantifiable product of the analysis of fighter and rearward firepower plus armor, which does harken back to my analogy I think.
Hi Al,
Pilot armour: Armour glass windscreen, armoured seat with 8 mm back armour, 4 mm side armour, 8 mm shoulder and head armour (above the armour seat). The side armour is a triangle designed to protect hips and thighs from oblique rear shots. The head armour is labelled "head rest" in the drawing, but I suppose it was the customary cushioned armour plate.
Cockpit armour: 4 mm armour floor, 8 mm rear armour bulkhead.
Some bits and pieces of rear gunner "side and head armour" that I can't make out clearly in the drawing.
8 mm armour floor below the main oil tank aft of the engine.
"Additional side armour (external)" for the cockpit sides - I think this may be our Schlachtflieger bolt-on armour. Unfortunately, no thickness is given.
(SBD)
Pilot rear armour weight is listed as 45 kg, forward armour as 17 kg, rear gunner armour as 14 kg. The total is 76 kg. No armour thickness figures are given.
For comparison, the difference between standard Ju 87B-2 and Ju 87B-2 "with armour" was given as 130 kg in the Betriebsanleitung, but what exactly is included in that amount is not clear. (It might be different from the Ju 87D-3 layout described above.)
1. Several 2 plane scouting sections VB and VS-10 at Santa Cruz that separately made contact with the Japanese CAP claimed 7 Zeroes without loss, at least one to fwd guns in a 7 v 2 encounter by the VS-10 CO, though none of those claims check out apparently. The team of Strong and Irvine did however score at least one 500# hit on Zuiho, following by a several on 2 where their rear gunners claimed a Zero each, and both returned safely. Even aside from the aerial claims, it's hard to imagine pairs of Ju-87's of any model pulling off those missions, though I don't offer it as positive proof.1. I don't recall any instance offhand where an SBD claimed a Zero with it's foward guns, but against enemy bombers they did when acting in the role of anti-torpedo fire. They bagged 5 at Coral Sea (and got one D3A) But also suffered heavily to Zeros as a result of being caught singlarily. SBD rear gunners got from 1-2 A6M's at Midway, and 3 at Santa Cruz.
2. Rough summary so far shows 7 F4F's traded in the air for 11 French fighters.