Lancaster Vs. B-24

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jan 26, 2006

Thanks for the site FBJ.

One also has to remember until the Island Hopping Campaign really got going, there were no places to really launch bombers from.

FLYBOYJ · Jan 26, 2006

Yep, and I think that's why the medium bomber and tactical applications were favored...

Gnomey · Jan 26, 2006

Agreed FBJ, they also required shorter runways and so could be up and running quicker as they could run from shorter more primitive strips.

syscom3 · Jan 26, 2006

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
Thanks for the site FBJ.

One also has to remember until the Island Hopping Campaign really got going, there were no places to really launch bombers from.

Not true.

The few heavy bombers groups available in all of 1942 were based in Australia, New Guinie, New Caledonia, CBI, and Aleutions.

Fortunatley for the allies, the US had developed enough airfields along several islands between Hawaii and Australia to allow the heavy and medium bombers to fly from one island to the next.

What held up operations in the first half of 1942 was the lack of bombers and crews to be everywhere. Priorities dictated that the bombers be held in Hawaii, or sent to the SW Pacific. Plus, even though many of the islands had airfields to allow an orderly transit of aircraft, they didnt have the facilities at the time to support bombing activities.

syscom3 · Jan 26, 2006

FLYBOYJ said:
Yep, and I think that's why the medium bomber and tactical applications were favored...

I was looking at a list of all the bomber groups deployed in the 5th, 7th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 14th AF's and there were actually more heavy bomber groups than medium and light groups.

FLYBOYJ · Jan 26, 2006

syscom3 said:
FLYBOYJ said:

Yep, and I think that's why the medium bomber and tactical applications were favored...

Click to expand...

I was looking at a list of all the bomber groups deployed in the 5th, 7th, 10th, 11th, 13th, 14th AF's and there were actually more heavy bomber groups than medium and light groups.

What years?

syscom3 · Jan 26, 2006

FLYBOYJ said:
syscom3 said:

wmaxt said:

Remember to, the bombers had effective fighter escort almost from the first in the PTO.

wmaxt

Click to expand...

The bombers had little if any escort at all, untill the P38's and F4U's came about.

Remember the ranges needed to fly in the PTO. 500 - 1000 mile missions were the norm.

Click to expand...

There was little heavy bomber activity in the PTO (Token B-17 raids) until 1943. By that time the B-24 and P-38 were on scene.

Marine F4Us didn't start heavy bomber escort mission until early 1943. I believe VMF-122 and VMF-124 was one of the first squadrons to participate in B-24 escort missions.

The US had three heavy bomber groups in the SW Pacific by the end of 1942, one in the CBI and one in the aleutions. That doesnt count the one or two held back in Hawaii.

The B17 group operating in the SW Pacific since the start of the war were flying regular missions every day, although it was sub-squadron size. Remember B17's were quite involved in the Guadalcanal campaign flying out of New Caledonia and Townsville/Port Moresby

The first B24 group to get out to NG was the 90th "Jolly Rogers". They started operations in Oct 1942.

The P38's getting out to the 5th and 13th AF were really not in force untill Feb or March 1943. Even though they had been around for awhile, maintanence problems meant there were only a few available each day. It didnt help too that most P38's sent to this area at first were the F5 photo jobs.

FLYBOYJ · Jan 26, 2006

In the Early PTO years there were between 6 and 7 heavy Bomber Groups, and about 5 and 6 Medium/ Light, FEAF.

From April - July 1942 medium and light bombers actually dropped more bombs than heavies (more sorties flown). By Mid 1943 the heavies started making their precence known, my belief is the availibilty of aircraft and airfields to operat out of.

http://www.usaaf.net/digest/t146.htm

There were only 21 pacific Island Bases in 1942, 65 in 1943 and 100 by the end of 1944

FLYBOYJ · Jan 26, 2006

syscom3 said:
The P38's getting out to the 5th and 13th AF were really not in force untill Feb or March 1943. Even though they had been around for awhile, maintanence problems meant there were only a few available each day. It didnt help too that most P38's sent to this area at first were the F5 photo jobs.

Try Oct - Dec 1942, and what data do you have about P-38 maintenance problems? Combat sorties in the FEAF Jumped by 200 from Sept. to Oct., 1942! Why? P-38s! June 1942 the 39th FS received their first P-38s, they were combat ready by the end of Sept/ beginning of October.

syscom3 · Jan 26, 2006

This is a listing of the BG's used throughout the Pacific Theater.

If I use a time period of late 1944, there are ten heavy bomber groups and nine light/medium groups.

This list is what was present in Spring 1945. This does not count B32 groups. The 5th and 13th AF combined into the FEAF but still retained their groups.
5th AF
3rd BG A20/B25
22nd BG B26/B24
38th BG B25
43rd BG B17/B24
90th BG B24
312nd BG A20
345th BG B25
380th BG B24
417 BG A20

7th AF
11 BG B24
30th BG B24
41st BG B25
319th BG A26
494th BG B24

11th AF
28th BG (composite)

13th AF
5th BG B24
42nd BG B25
307th BG B24

10th AF
7th BG B24
12 BG B25/A26

14th AF
308th BG
341st BG

the lancaster kicks ass · Jan 28, 2006

CC should be able to telly uo more about the P-38's pacific escort duties.........

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jan 28, 2006

syscom3 said:
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

Thanks for the site FBJ.

One also has to remember until the Island Hopping Campaign really got going, there were no places to really launch bombers from.

Click to expand...

Not true.

The few heavy bombers groups available in all of 1942 were based in Australia, New Guinie, New Caledonia, CBI, and Aleutions.

Fortunatley for the allies, the US had developed enough airfields along several islands between Hawaii and Australia to allow the heavy and medium bombers to fly from one island to the next.

What held up operations in the first half of 1942 was the lack of bombers and crews to be everywhere. Priorities dictated that the bombers be held in Hawaii, or sent to the SW Pacific. Plus, even though many of the islands had airfields to allow an orderly transit of aircraft, they didnt have the facilities at the time to support bombing activities.

Um no when the US first entered the war and Japan controled most of the Islands the US was not able to reach Japan until they had taken over Islands in the Island Hopping Campaign. They could not reach Japan from Australia, They could not reach Japan from Pearl Harbour. As a matter of fact that is why they used Carriers to do the Doolittle Raid because they could not reach the Main Islands of Japan.

Maybe from the tip of the Alleutions thay may have been able to reach, but what air strips did the US have there.

syscom3 · Jan 28, 2006

Im refering to using the islands in the PTO to allow a plane to fly from Hawaii to Australia. There were lots of islands that had airfields developed on them in 1941 and 1942

syscom3 · Jan 28, 2006

Im refering to using the islands in the PTO to allow a plane to fly from Hawaii to Australia. There were lots of islands that had airfields developed on them in 1941 and 1942

FLYBOYJ · Jan 28, 2006

syscom3 said:
Im refering to using the islands in the PTO to allow a plane to fly from Hawaii to Australia. There were lots of islands that had airfields developed on them in 1941 and 1942

I don't thnk you're going to find many. Here's a map, most Islands were in Japanese hands...

FLYBOYJ · Jan 28, 2006

Fiji, Christmas, and New Caledonia were where the USAAF had units based protecting the bases them selves as they were part of the supply route to Australia. As you can seen on the map, the action at the time was in New Guinea, Solomon and Coral Sea, outside the range of any bomber.

here's a good link...

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/I/AAF-I-12.html

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jan 28, 2006

And what were they going to bomb Australia for?

No seriously. Even from Australia they could not reach the mainland of Japan.

FLYBOYJ · Jan 28, 2006

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
And what were they going to bomb Australia for?

No seriously. Even from Australia they could not reach the mainland of Japan.

Yep! based on the numbers I posted earlier that showed medium and light bombers showing more bombs dropped early in the war proves that there were not alot of heavy bombers on hand and one reason for that is there was no place to base them where they could be used effectively...

http://www.usaaf.net/digest/t146.htm

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Jan 28, 2006

Exactly and good maps up there also.

syscom3 · Jan 28, 2006

B17's and B24's were based on New Caledonia, Townsville, Port Moresby, Guadalcanal, and Canton island and Howland/Baker islands.

They had plenty of bases to operate from. It was just a matter of deploying the bomb groups. Only one beat up and under strength B17 group was operational through the start of the Guadalcanal operation, and two more bomb groups arrived in the SW Pacific by the end of the year. The heavy bomber groups in Hawaii didnt have the range to hit any targets so they were used only for scouting patrols.

Lancaster Vs. B-24

Which was the better WWII bomber?

Avro 683 Lancaster

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