Lancaster Vs. B-24

[FLYBOYJ]

B17's and B24's were based on New Caledonia, Townsville, Port Moresby, Guadalcanal, and Canton island and Howland/Baker islands.

They had plenty of bases to operate from. It was just a matter of deploying the bomb groups. Only one beat up and under strength B17 group was operational through the start of the Guadalcanal operation, and two more bomb groups arrived in the SW Pacific by the end of the year. The heavy bomber groups in Hawaii didnt have the range to hit any targets so they were used only for scouting patrols.

5 Islands? Guadalcanal was secured and used by B-24s way later. Port Moresby was the only base close enough in the slot where targets like Rabual and New Britain could be hit.

From new Caledonia to the Solomons was just under 2000 miles, a one way trip?!?

Howland/ Baker? Look at where they on on a map!

 

[syscom3]

A survey of the islands that had the 30th bomb group showed they were operating out of the Ellice islands (now the nation of Tuvulu), Tarawa and Kwajelein.

I was incorrect about New Caledonia. The correct forward operating base was on Espiritu Santo island (New Hebrides, now Vanuatu).

Other islands where the B24's were based include the Admiralties, Biak and Middleburg (all in 1944)

 

[FLYBOYJ]

A survey of the islands that had the 30th bomb group showed they were operating out of the Ellice islands (now the nation of Tuvulu), Tarawa and Kwajelein.

I was incorrect about New Caledonia. The correct forward operating base was on Espiritu Santo island (New Hebrides, now Vanuatu).

Other islands where the B24's were based include the Admiralties, Biak and Middleburg.

All later in the war. We're still talking mid 1942, there wasn't many bases initally available until Guadalcanal was secured. B-24s weren't in numbers at Espiritu Santo until late 42, early 43, here's a nice little site:

http://www.pacificwrecks.com/provinces/vanuatu_espiritu.html

And I could tell you that B-24s didn't reach Kwajelein untill mid 1944. My wife's grandfather bombed it and then when it was taken back by the US he flew from there to other islands. Look at the history of the 819th Bomb Squadron....

http://www.sonofisaac.8m.com/page27.html#B-24 Memorial Site

"The 30th Bombardment Group (Heavy) was activated at March Field in California on January 15, 1941. During its first six months of operation, the group was primarily concerned with recruiting and organizing air and ground crews. Gradually, it built up to a strength of 33 officers and 419 enlisted men. On June 7th the group was transferred to New Orleans where future pilots learned to fly B-18s, A-29s, and PT-17s. Returning to California on December 24, the group was stationed at Muroc Army Air Base (later Edwards AFB), for six weeks of operational and maintenance training on new B-24 "Liberators." On February 7, 1942, it proceeded to March Field for combat training.

Following the Japanese attack at Dutch Harbor in the Aleutian Islands on June 7, six aircraft of the 30th Bombardment Group were dispatched to Alaska for combat sorties. The remaining aircraft were dispersed along the West Coast from San Diego, California, to McChord Field in Washington, patrolling against possible surprise attacks by the Japanese.

In September 1943, 134 officers and 1,270 enlisted men of the 30th Bombardment Group's ground echelon left March Field for duty overseas via Camp Stoneman, California. The first of the flight echelon arrived at Hickham Field, Oahu, Hawaii, on October 1, 1943. The remaining personnel and planes arrived in Hawaii by October 20. The group's 27th and 38th Squadrons were based at Kahuku, Oahu, while the 392d and 819th Squadrons were at Barking Sands on the Island of Kauai. The 819th Squadron was the newest addition to the Group. Previously designated the 3d Anti-Submarine Squadron, it was redesignated and assigned to the group as a replacement unit for the 21st Squadron that had been sent to Alaska. The 21st was subsequently dropped from the records of the group. While in Hawaii, the group was assigned to the 7th Army Air Force.

Movement to the Forward Line

Movement to the forward area began in early November 1943 when the 27th and 38th Bombardment Squadrons moved to Nanomea in the Ellice Islands, and the 392nd to Canton in the Phoenix Islands. The 819th Squadron remained at Wheeler Field, Oahu, where it processed new crews and airplanes that were later dispatched to the front line. When the Central Pacific drive began in the Gilbert Islands in November 1943, the 30th Bombardment Group mounted bombing raids against enemy installations on those islands. It also raided airfields in the Marshall Islands to help prevent the launching of Japanese planes against the amphibious assault on Tarawa.

Following the hard-fought victory in the Gilberts, American amphibious forces under a blanket air cover from bombers and fighters advanced into the Marshall Islands in January 1944. Staging through the recently captured Tarawa and Mankin Islands, bombers of the 30th Group attacked several atolls in the Marshalls, including Kwajalein.

Between November 14, 1943 and April 1, 1944, the group carried out 42 bombing missions over the Marshall Islands and participated in the actual invasion of Kwajalein in February 1944.

After capturing Kwajalein Atoll and nearby Majuro Atoll early in February, American forces seized Eniwetok Atoll at the western end of the Marshall chain. As the war moved closer to Japan, the 30th Bombardment Group joined with the 11th Bombardment Group of the Thirteenth Air Force in neutralizing Truk. The 30th also bombed Wake Island, Guam, Saipan, and harassed other islands in the Carolines and Marianas, bypassed by American amphibious forces. In August 1944, the 30th Bombardment Group moved to Saipan where it was joined by the 819th Squadron, bringing together all four squadrons for the first time since Hawaii. During the next six months, the group conducted intensive bombing strikes against airfields and shipping at Bonin and Volcano Islands, Iwo Jima, ChiChi Jima, and Yap. Its final bombing mission was at Iwo Jima on February 19, 1945, the same day three Marine divisions invaded the island"

 

[syscom3]

I know all that.

I was just pointing out that the B17's and B24's operated from a variety of island bases throughout the war. As the AAF sent most BG's to Europe in 1942, the PTO (which includes the SW Pacific and CBI) had to wait untill the JCS made available a few BG's.

The lack of any heavy bombers in this part of the world was due to their non-availability, not because a lack of suitable airstrips.

I have heard though, some pilots based on these islands would swear that when they would come in to land, the sharks would gather on the approach end waiting for an undershoot. After the plane crossed over the beach, they would swim to the other end and wait for an overshoot.

 

[Wildcat]

No one has mentioned the heavy Bomber units stationed in and around Darwin. As early as May 1942 B-17's of the 64th BS 43rdBG had conducted a few missions from Batchelor airstrip against shipping off Koepang and targets such as Penfoie airfield. However there was a high unserviceability rate of the B-17's due to a lack of maintenance facilities and spares.
Also in November 1942 B-26's of the 22nd BG were detached to Darwin from Queensland where they reinforced RAAF Hudsons. The B-26's were only deployed to the Darwin area for five days, but flew missions over Timor, particularly Dili, and managed to shoot down 6 Jap fighters.
1943 was however, the year the USAAF heavies really established themselves in the Darwin area. The 319thBS of the 90thBG arrived at Fenton on the 3rd Feb, to fulfill a requirement of reconnaisance on MacArthurs Southern Flank. The squadron flew 75 missions, 48 of them being recon, before they were joined by the 380th BG.
the 380th arrived at Fenton and Manbulloo on the 1st of June. The 528th and 530th sqaudrons went to Fenton while the 529th and 531st went to Manbulloo. Missions were flown immediately against enemy shipping and land targets on Timor, Celebes, BAli ,Java, Ceram, PNG and Borneo.
In January 1945 the 380th moved North to Mindoro ending 21 months of combat operations from Australia.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I know all that.

I was just pointing out that the B17's and B24's operated from a variety of island bases throughout the war. As the AAF sent most BG's to Europe in 1942, the PTO (which includes the SW Pacific and CBI) had to wait untill the JCS made available a few BG's.

The lack of any heavy bombers in this part of the world was due to their non-availability, not because a lack of suitable airstrips.

I half agree, there were not many bases in the area. It was shown earlier that the amount of bases in the area doubled within a year and a half. At this point medium and light bombers were dropping more bombs than the heavies..

 

[FLYBOYJ]

No one has mentioned the heavy Bomber units stationed in and around Darwin. As early as May 1942 B-17's of the 64th BS 43rdBG had conducted a few missions from Batchelor airstrip against shipping off Koepang and targets such as Penfoie airfield. However there was a high unserviceability rate of the B-17's due to a lack of maintenance facilities and spares.
Also in November 1942 B-26's of the 22nd BG were detached to Darwin from Queensland where they reinforced RAAF Hudsons. The B-26's were only deployed to the Darwin area for five days, but flew missions over Timor, particularly Dili, and managed to shoot down 6 Jap fighters.
1943 was however, the year the USAAF heavies really established themselves in the Darwin area. The 319thBS of the 90thBG arrived at Fenton on the 3rd Feb, to fulfill a requirement of reconnaisance on MacArthurs Southern Flank. The squadron flew 75 missions, 48 of them being recon, before they were joined by the 380th BG.
the 380th arrived at Fenton and Manbulloo on the 1st of June. The 528th and 530th sqaudrons went to Fenton while the 529th and 531st went to Manbulloo. Missions were flown immediately against enemy shipping and land targets on Timor, Celebes, BAli ,Java, Ceram, PNG and Borneo.
In January 1945 the 380th moved North to Mindoro ending 21 months of combat operations from Australia.

Good post Wildcat!

 

[syscom3]

Wildcat, ever hear of the book "King of the Heavies"?

Its a great book written about the 380th BG.

Although were far off topic here, Ive always thought that the RAF should have deployed a Lanc squadron here and the 5th AF deploy another B24 group and begin around the clock attacks on the oil fields in Borneo. If this was performed in middle 1943 and supported fully, then the war in the Pacific would have taken a different turn.

 

[syscom3]

I know all that.

I was just pointing out that the B17's and B24's operated from a variety of island bases throughout the war. As the AAF sent most BG's to Europe in 1942, the PTO (which includes the SW Pacific and CBI) had to wait untill the JCS made available a few BG's.

The lack of any heavy bombers in this part of the world was due to their non-availability, not because a lack of suitable airstrips.

I half agree, there were not many bases in the area. It was shown earlier that the amount of bases in the area doubled within a year and a half. At this point medium and light bombers were dropping more bombs than the heavies..

I have to look at the stats closer. I cant open that statistics web page from home, so I will look at it when I'm at work.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

http://www.usaaf.net/digest/t146.htm

There were only 21 pacific Island Bases in 1942, 65 in 1943 and 100 by the end of 1944

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

there would be no point in sending out such a small force, getting parts and replacements out there wouldn't be worth it in the RAF's eyes, in '43 there weren't enough lancs as it was, they were all needed to bomb germany back to the middle ages.......

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I know all that.

I was just pointing out that the B17's and B24's operated from a variety of island bases throughout the war. As the AAF sent most BG's to Europe in 1942, the PTO (which includes the SW Pacific and CBI) had to wait untill the JCS made available a few BG's.

The lack of any heavy bombers in this part of the world was due to their non-availability, not because a lack of suitable airstrips.

I have heard though, some pilots based on these islands would swear that when they would come in to land, the sharks would gather on the approach end waiting for an undershoot. After the plane crossed over the beach, they would swim to the other end and wait for an overshoot.

And what were they able to bomb of Mainland, Japan? Nothing. These bases that you are talking about coudl be used to bomb the Islands in the Island Hopping Campaign but not Mainland Japan. They had to take Islands first in order to do that.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Yep, and this the point, the amount of bases tripled in a year. Sure there weren't many bombers to be had in mid 1942, but more importantly there was no place to stage them from. Although there were missions flown from Darwin, it wasn't until Guadalcanal and the Islands around it were secured. If you look at that site I posted it shows the tonnage of bombs dropped substantially increase into 1943 as more bases were built and more aircraft (primarily B-24) were deployed.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yeap, but next we will probably be discussing that if that had not changed we would have seen teh B-52 entering service in 1943, because that woudl have made it possible.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

although quite how this is to do with the original argument i don't know

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Good point.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

YEP!

 

[syscom3]

Never stop a thread if it goes into interesting new directions.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

YEP!

 

[Wildcat]

Wildcat, ever hear of the book "King of the Heavies"?

Its a great book written about the 380th BG.

Although were far off topic here, Ive always thought that the RAF should have deployed a Lanc squadron here and the 5th AF deploy another B24 group and begin around the clock attacks on the oil fields in Borneo. If this was performed in middle 1943 and supported fully, then the war in the Pacific would have taken a different turn.

I haven't heard of that book Sys, sounds interesting though.

As for using Lancs in the Pacific, the Australian Government in 1943 laid plans to start local manufacture of the Lancaster. A pattern aircraft arrived in June that year, however there was a period of confusion as to how many and what model would be built. The Government finally decided to build Lincolns, which it did, but this was not decided until mid 1945!!
In the meantime however, Gen. George Kenney, decided that due to the vast amounts of Liberators being produced, the RAAF would be supplied with enough B-24's the equip 7 heavy bomber squadrons. The first Libs were delivered in Feb 1944 and went to 7OTU and shortly after that to no. 24 squadron. To gain experiance, RAAF aircrew were attached to the 380th BG in New Guinea for conversion and operational training. Due to delivery delays, the remaining squadrons weren't operational until Jan 1945.
Nos. 21, 23,and 24 squadrons operated as no. 82 bomber wing which played an important part in the Borneo campaign along side the USAAF.
Whats interesting with the Borneo campaign is the Balikpapan operation, in which general orders stated "seize and occupy the Balikpapan, Borneo, area, establish naval, air and logistics facilities and conserve petrolium producing and processing insallations therein.." This seemed to be ignored however, because Balikpapan was virtually blown off the map due to heavy bombing raids and naval gunfire! The Dutch Government (who owned it before the Japs invaded) even complained that the bombardment of Balikpapan was way too excessive and caused unnecessary damage!
Anyway the Lincolns replaced the 287 B-24's in RAAF service in 1948.