Liberate, loot and rape.

[ARTESH]

I have read about the "sanitizing" of the Wehrmacht after the war. It was a politically expedient. The Wehrmacht was also ordered to, and did, carry out large scale atrocities.

I don't know and don't care about what has been said by those who were not even born back then.

There are many ways to find the truth... I personally like the more savage ways... A blade, ready to cut their dear's throat, will loose their tongues. Easy, and extremely effective to root out any and all false / wrong info's.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Not a "source", but worth considering as an option:

In movie "Fury", the US forces kill SS POWs. I know it's a movie, but we actually have real time examples... Dachau massacre, done by US troops, victims were SS troops, recently transferred to area.

Dachau liberation reprisals - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I know that some incidents happened. I reject the notion that these were "routine" occurrences.

 

[ARTESH]

I know that some incidents happened. I reject the notion that these were "routine" occurrences.

Have in mind, what we know, is what allowed to be shared on public...

I give another example... One German pilot decided not to shoot down a severely damaged American bomber... The story was said to be not published... Even after war was over...

Now, just think how many similar events could possibly happened? And what portion, we are aware of?

 

[pbehn]

I have read about the "sanitizing" of the Wehrmacht after the war. It was a politically expedient. The Wehrmacht was also ordered to, and did, carry out large scale atrocities.

It is happening still as we can see here. I worked all over Northern Europe and some places in the south, no place I worked was there no evidence of German atrocities, a big surprise for me was in Greece, which I hadnt heard about, but you get told about there on the road signs.

 

[Snautzer01]

Americans executing prisoners was hardly "routine". If you have a source for that claim, please present it.

Can you read german?

 

[ARTESH]

Not many people, even in Iran, are aware of great famine during WW1, caused by Russians, Ottomans and Britain.

Iran was neutral, but lost more population than those who were fighting.

Persian famine of 1917–1919 - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

No one, never ever, was known responsible for that... The occupation forces, never paid us anything in return. Old debts... They need and will be collected, by any means, nessecary.

 

[SaparotRob]

And thus it never ends.

 

[ARTESH]

The same happened during ww2...

Again, my country was neutral... But got invaded by foreigners... Again, they never paid for destruction they have caused.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I have read about the "sanitizing" of the Wehrmacht after the war. It was a politically expedient. The Wehrmacht was also ordered to, and did, carry out large scale atrocities.

The "commando order", the Commissar order, and other orders on the Eastern Front demanding the extermination of "untermenschen". The only similar American order I can think of regarding prisoners is the one Patton gave out, but that wasn't an official order, to my knowledge.

 

[RichardSuhkoi]

Not a "source", but worth considering as an option:

In movie "Fury", the US forces kill SS POWs. I know it's a movie, but we actually have real time examples... Dachau massacre, done by US troops, victims were SS troops, recently transferred to area.

Dachau liberation reprisals - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I actually had an in depth conversation on this topic with a military historian (an American). He explained that the military history of USA was born in the "Indian Wars" which were genocidal, hence No military culture of POW was ingrained in training. Remember that a 40 year old senior officer in WW2 would have attended Academy in say 1925, and it became illegal to kill Indians around 1908 in USA.
I have personally spoken with veterans who executed Japanese and German prisoners. In both cases they explained it was inconvenient/ impractical to hold them for logistical purposes, so they shot them. Both explained that as young soldiers they didn't mind as they hated the enemy but as years went by they began to see their victims as humans. If you really want to dig in, find a historian that digs into regimental diaries and statistics. You might notice that towards the end of WW2 USA collected and did not kill vast numbers of enemy but not very many in the first months after landing. BTW notice I prefaced my earlier comments on "based on direct interview". But, there is some shame in the military culture. An example of this manifesting can be seen in the movie "saving private Ryan", where the movie goes to lengths to show why they should have murdered a hapless German soldier who they show kindness to but instead goes back and joins the SS (see they should have murdered him). On a lighter note I remember a story from. Dutch man who took several Japanese prisoners at a remote observation point. He had no way to bring them to his side and they couldn't walk well as they were thin and sick. He had them burn their rifles and ammo, gave them malaria pills, and told them to burn all their radios and most of their clothing and all their boots. He said in a few days people would bring food but only if they would formally surrender to him. He told them they would go home where they were needed to rebuild, to fight on would in fact be cowardly. They all did, and indeed waited for later arrest.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

I should clarfiy my comments by saying that I made them regarding the ETO. Prisoners were rarely taken in the PTO by Americans, in large part because wounded Japanese were seen as booby-trap threats who would kill medics etc.

 

[pbehn]

I actually had an in depth conversation on this topic with a military historian (an American). He explained that the military history of USA was born in the "Indian Wars" which were genocidal, hence No military culture of POW was ingrained in training. Remember that a 40 year old senior officer in WW2 would have attended Academy in say 1925, and it became illegal to kill Indians around 1908 in USA.
I have personally spoken with veterans who executed Japanese and German prisoners. In both cases they explained it was inconvenient/ impractical to hold them for logistical purposes, so they shot them. Both explained that as young soldiers they didn't mind as they hated the enemy but as years went by they began to see their victims as humans. If you really want to dig in, find a historian that digs into regimental diaries and statistics. You might notice that towards the end of WW2 USA collected and did not kill vast numbers of enemy but not very many in the first months after landing. BTW notice I prefaced my earlier comments on "based on direct interview". But, there is some shame in the military culture. An example of this manifesting can be seen in the movie "saving private Ryan", where the movie goes to lengths to show why they should have murdered a hapless German soldier who they show kindness to but instead goes back and joins the SS (see they should have murdered him). On a lighter note I remember a story from. Dutch man who took several Japanese prisoners at a remote observation point. He had no way to bring them to his side and they couldn't walk well as they were thin and sick. He had them burn their rifles and ammo, gave them malaria pills, and told them to burn all their radios and most of their clothing and all their boots. He said in a few days people would bring food but only if they would formally surrender to him. He told them they would go home where they were needed to rebuild, to fight on would in fact be cowardly. They all did, and indeed waited for later arrest.

Did he tell you when other countries started taking prisoners in large numbers, high value prisoners were taken, the officers were usually wealthy and could be held for a ransom, the others on a Napoleonic battlefield that didnt escape were killed, prior to that they frequently werent prisoners taken, but slaves. Now, about all these places taken by the German army where all was peace and love, can you tell me the name of them please, just one will do, as a start. I note that you have very quickly confused the treatment of soldiers in battle with the treatment of civilians after the battles finished.

 

[ARTESH]

I actually had an in depth conversation on this topic with a military historian (an American). He explained that the military history of USA was born in the "Indian Wars" which were genocidal, hence No military culture of POW was ingrained in training. Remember that a 40 year old senior officer in WW2 would have attended Academy in say 1925, and it became illegal to kill Indians around 1908 in USA.
I have personally spoken with veterans who executed Japanese and German prisoners. In both cases they explained it was inconvenient/ impractical to hold them for logistical purposes, so they shot them. Both explained that as young soldiers they didn't mind as they hated the enemy but as years went by they began to see their victims as humans. If you really want to dig in, find a historian that digs into regimental diaries and statistics. You might notice that towards the end of WW2 USA collected and did not kill vast numbers of enemy but not very many in the first months after landing. BTW notice I prefaced my earlier comments on "based on direct interview". But, there is some shame in the military culture. An example of this manifesting can be seen in the movie "saving private Ryan", where the movie goes to lengths to show why they should have murdered a hapless German soldier who they show kindness to but instead goes back and joins the SS (see they should have murdered him). On a lighter note I remember a story from. Dutch man who took several Japanese prisoners at a remote observation point. He had no way to bring them to his side and they couldn't walk well as they were thin and sick. He had them burn their rifles and ammo, gave them malaria pills, and told them to burn all their radios and most of their clothing and all their boots. He said in a few days people would bring food but only if they would formally surrender to him. He told them they would go home where they were needed to rebuild, to fight on would in fact be cowardly. They all did, and indeed waited for later arrest.

You have only interviewed Americans, not ones from opposit side, it simply means, you haven't heard half of story.

Beside that, for a single cent or penny, there are people who will tell anything, or do anything, it's good to double, triple, or even, quadraple check things... You'll notice something would be wrong...

They claim they served with X unit, meanwhile that unit was on the other side of the world! Or maybe even that unit didn't exist at all, or was destroyed way beyond that date...

Maybe all those papers were faked, bought online or made by Photoshop or similar apps.

 

[RichardSuhkoi]

Did he tell you when other countries started taking prisoners in large numbers, high value prisoners were taken, the officers were usually wealthy and could be held for a ransom, the others on a Napoleonic battlefield that didnt escape were killed, prior to that they frequently werent prisoners taken, but slaves. Now, about all these places taken by the German army where all was peace and love, can you tell me the name of them please, just one will do, as a start. I note that you have very quickly confused the treatment of soldiers in battle with the treatment of civilians after the battles finished.

This reminds me of a school lesson The story goes tbe English had lost a battle against the French. The French released them but amputated the two fingers needed to draw a bow. The "V" For victory sign was born.
It was after school, when I got around more, I learned that there really are not so many good "countries" but rather good men who make good and human choices despite personal risk.

 

[pbehn]

This reminds me of a school lesson The story goes tbe English had lost a battle against the French. The French released them but amputated the two fingers needed to draw a bow. The "V" For victory sign was born.
It was after school, when I got around more, I learned that there really are not so many good "countries" but rather good men who make good and human choices despite personal risk.

The story is that the French at Agincourt told the English that they would cut off their fingers when they (the French) won. When the English won they chased the French waving the fingers they still had, opposite way round to the "v" for victory sign, which in UK is the way to say "f you" like the middle finger in most parts of the world. There is no evidence for this to be true at all.

 

[MiTasol]

Americans executing prisoners was hardly "routine". If you have a source for that claim, please present it.

I have never heard of the routine execution of prisoners by US forces but dad was present when a US cook walked in on a group of airmen and medics trying to talk to a Japanese airman who they had captured. The cook shot him dead with the comment that that was the only way he would get to kill a Jap. The MPs took the cook away but dad did not know what happened after that.

One indisputable fact is that the USAAF and RAAF machine gunned and bombed Japanese sailors in lift rafts etc. Look for the full, not edited, documentary Battle of the Bismark Sea for evidence. From memory that got nominated for an Academy Award.

 

[MiTasol]

Have in mind, what we know, is what allowed to be shared on public...

I give another example... One German pilot decided not to shoot down a severely damaged American bomber... The story was said to be not published... Even after war was over...

Now, just think how many similar events could possibly happened? And what portion, we are aware of?

Again from dads experience at Honiara.

When the Japanese were attacking Henderson Field he was one of many in hospital with malaria. There was a flapping on the roof of their tent followed by silence. It was repeated and followed soon after by the sound of the roof being slashed open by a bayonet which flapped the cut from side to side. Soon after a Japanese soldiers head appeared and when no one shot at him he walked away.

We always thought dad was hallucinating from the malaria and meds but then National Geographic came out with a program on the Japanese attack on the Solomons which contained Japanese film of that happening.

 

[GrauGeist]

My Uncle's sub went to great lengths to rescue downed Japanese aircrew.

Many were grateful to be pulled from the water, several refused salvation, drowning themselves instead.

On a very few occasions, one would wait until the sub pulled close and they'd open fire on the sailors with a pistol. The response was being raked by the .50 mount.

His sub was not the only one that rescued all people in distress, either.

 

[Thumpalumpacus]

Can you read german?

No.

 

[RichardSuhkoi]

I have never heard of the routine execution of prisoners by US forces but dad was present when a US cook walked in on a group of airmen and medics trying to talk to a Japanese airman who they had captured. The cook shot him dead with the comment that that was the only way he would get to kill a Jap. The MPs took the cook away but dad did not know what happened after that.

One indisputable fact is that the USAAF and RAAF machine gunned and bombed Japanese sailors in lift rafts etc. Look for the full, not edited, documentary Battle of the Bismark Sea for evidence. From memory that got nominated for an Academy Award.

What a historian might do is start with the regulations- the rules of war flowed into the training. Then look over actual training programs to see how much time was devoted. Then look for refresher in field training (such as modern time UK "green card" ), then study the record for prosecution and count charges and convictions. This has probably all been done. My "sources" are long dead. I am aware that individual reports are not the whole picture, and can be wrong. Example was a Canadian vet who upon seeing original purple wood 8mm German ammo explained to me how when he was in Europe in 1945 they learned that Germany had ran out of metal bullets so we're using wood bullets. He remembered his briefing on it. I didn't have the heart to tell him he was lied to. But I have very vivid memories of old soldiers shaking in tears, and certainly what he told me was his truth, and was deeply disturbing to him (and I).