Longest range flying boats
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
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fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
What exactly was Britain supposed to do from half a world away. I suppose they could ask Hitler and Mussolini to stop the fighting so Britain could send troops, planes and ships to go and fight in the Pacific.
Shortround6
Major General
The Trans Pacific routes were worked out using the Sikorsky S-42
But it needed to be stripped out, extra fuel tanks fitted and could carry no practical payload, not even a few hundred pounds of mail.
That had to wait for the Martin M 130
which could carry passengers and mail.
Advantages of the flying boats for long routes was that a flying boat base was a lot less expensive than an airfield to build. You need an apron to get the plane into and out of the water, maintenance shops (perhaps not even a hanger to put the plane in ) and hotel and restaurant facilities for the passengers and accommodations for base personnel.
The water provided an almost unlimited length runway, subject to suitable protection from ocean waves, No long expensive runways.
But it needed to be stripped out, extra fuel tanks fitted and could carry no practical payload, not even a few hundred pounds of mail.
That had to wait for the Martin M 130
which could carry passengers and mail.
Advantages of the flying boats for long routes was that a flying boat base was a lot less expensive than an airfield to build. You need an apron to get the plane into and out of the water, maintenance shops (perhaps not even a hanger to put the plane in ) and hotel and restaurant facilities for the passengers and accommodations for base personnel.
The water provided an almost unlimited length runway, subject to suitable protection from ocean waves, No long expensive runways.
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
Before the common use of constant speed props some flying boats had take offs measured in miles.
- Thread starter
- #25
Admiral Beez
Captain
The Empire was always about serving those with power and influence in Britain, or more precisely England. This was the fatal flaw in the British Empire, it was run on a shoestring and never really cared about bringing its colonies into equal footing in the greater empire.
In the Roman Empire, conquered peoples who were not slaves were able to become equal citizens of the Empire. Not so in the British Empire, where you were either English, subjugated or unwanted.
- Thread starter
- #26
Admiral Beez
Captain
Maybe let the Australians take over Malayan defence instead of taking the lions share of their troops to North Africa.
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
I don't know the total number of Australian personnel involved in North Africa but there were 3 Australian infantry Divisions in the theatre. After the start of the Japanese attacks 2 divisions were withdrawn almost immediately and returned to Australia. The 9th division stayed in Africa till the end of 1942. The Australian Armed forces early 1941 was nearly 600,00 strong. An Infantry Division in Africa could vary in size but the usual complement was ~18,000 men.
So approximately 10% of the Australian armed forces was in Africa before the Japanese attacks.
Yes, how inconsiderate of them!
Let's just say that times have changed and the feeling was that way because Britain's place in the world was very different to what it is now and how small nations within the Commonwealth, Dominions, as NZ was called, relied on and looked up to Britain for its survival. A lot of this comers from the fact that Britain had been asked to provide a greater military presence in the region in peacetime before the Great War and between the wars. Quite naturally Britain, recovering from a devastating conflict that affected the commonwealth equally had few resources to do so (quite co-incidentally I am communication with a colleague here regarding the Imperial Gift aircraft - the British had a large number of surplus aircraft that it made available to foreign countries, including some outside the Commonwealth).
Interesting enough, despite this prevalent feeling at the time, NZ wasn't the one to level accusations of abandonment, it was Australia that did that. After the attack on Pearl Harbour, the Aussie Prime Minister John Curtin made a speech that defined his term and set a course, like New Zealand had done, of relying on the USA for military support, but ill-feeling toward Britain ran high in Aussie, much higher than it ever did here.
One of these flew long range proving flights down this way, the Samoan Clipper, not carrying passengers of course but it raised a lot of interest here. The aircraft was lost in an accident and Pan Am's chief pilot Edwin Musick was killed. Musick Point in Auckland was named after him and a radio navigation station was set up there to assist with the flying boats that operated out of Mechanics Bay on the Waitemata Harbour, Auckland.
Here's a nice piccy of Samoan Clipper with Centaurus, an Empire Boat in Mechanics Bay.
Pan Am's Samoan Clipper in Auckland | NZHistory, New Zealand history online
True to form, the last surviving Short Empire flying boat was placed on the shore of Mission Bay in Auckland and was used as a restaurant among other things, but sadly it was scrapped.
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- Thread starter
- #29
Admiral Beez
Captain
That number includes everyone in uniform. AIUI in 1941 Australia had five combat infantry divisions, plus four militia/reserve/training division.
Based in Australia (1 combat, 4 militia/training):
1st, 1st Division (Australia) - Wikipedia
2nd, militia/reserve, 2nd Division (Australia) - Wikipedia
3rd, militia/reserve, 3rd Division (Australia) - Wikipedia
4th, militia/reserve, 4th Division (Australia) - Wikipedia
5th, militia/training, 4th Division (Australia) - Wikipedia
Overseas (4 combat divisions)
8th, located in Malaya 8th Division (Australia) - Wikipedia
6th, located in North Africa 6th Division (Australia) - Wikipedia
7th, located in North Africa 7th Division (Australia) - Wikipedia
9th, located in North Africa 9th Division (Australia) - Wikipedia
There was briefly a 10th division, but it was quickly disbanded, 10th Division (Australia) - Wikipedia
Once Japan invaded French-Indo China in Sept 1940 it must have been clear to Britain and Australia that Malaya, Burma, DEI and then PNG would be next. So, send someone else to North Africa (the Canadian army is sitting idle in Britain at this time) and send all five Australian combat divisions to Malaya, along with keeping the RAN in the Pacific rather than in the Mediterranean, with the cruisers HMAS Sydney, Perth, Hobart, Adelaide, Canberra and Shropshire, plus a dozen RAN destroyers utilizing the brand new Singapore naval base. And maybe get the RAN some submarines, minesweepers/layers and MTGBs.
And if Australia is responsbile for Malaya's defence, the Aussies get to choose the General, and I hope the RAAF gets some competitive aircraft. But of course this depends on Australian decisions and planning before the war. I would argue that Australia neglected its own defences, depending too heavily on an assumed protection from Britain, when it should have been obvious by the mid-30s that Britain wasn't interested or capable of defending Australia. Australia was not obliged to send its army to North Africa, and IMO, Canberra should have refused, and instead demanded control over Malayan-Solomon-PNG defences. Ideally Australia thought of this between the wars and thus invested more in their military, including RAAF fighters, with air bases between Australia and Singapore to allow for quick reinforcements. And to bring us back on topic, the RAN needs flying boats to patrol these vast territories.
As for how to pay for this.... make the damn Malayan rubber plantation and tin mine owners back in Britain pay to defend their assets. These weren't crown corporations, but for profit enterprises. The Malaysian Plantation Industry: A Brief History to the mid 1980s and ABOUT TIN MINING - ARTICLES
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
They did: South Africans.
Vic Nighthorse
Airman
- 34
- Sep 9, 2018
Where did you get the range of the clean Do-26s that you had confidence in to compare to the Wikipedia range of the Mars that you posted as evidence it had the longest legs. I ain't saying you are wrong but you didn't do much to convince us readers that the Mars out-ranged all versions of the Do-26.
- Thread starter
- #32
Admiral Beez
Captain
I didn't reference the Do-26.
Vic Nighthorse
Airman
- 34
- Sep 9, 2018
I was taking the "Mars conquers all" as an implication that it out-ranged all other flying boats rather than just US ones. My mistake, then.
Shortround6
Major General
They only built 7 of the Mars and just the prototype had guns and they were taken out during the conversion to the XPB2M-1R version along with other changes.
the other 6 stated as JRM-1s with single tails and other modifications, one was built as the JRM-2 with P & W R-4360s.
Modifications for firefighting service further complicate tracking down fuel capacities.
the other 6 stated as JRM-1s with single tails and other modifications, one was built as the JRM-2 with P & W R-4360s.
Modifications for firefighting service further complicate tracking down fuel capacities.
ThomasP
Senior Master Sergeant
See the USN Performance Data document:"http://www.alternatewars.com/SAC/XPB2M-1R_Mars_PD_-_1_April_1943.pdf"
TOGW of 140,000 lbs with max fuel load of 8000 USgal and 8775 lbs cargo, giving a range of 4945 miles at 135 mph.
TOGW of 140,000 lbs with max fuel load of 8000 USgal and 8775 lbs cargo, giving a range of 4945 miles at 135 mph.
Vic Nighthorse
Airman
- 34
- Sep 9, 2018
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Tony Kambic
Airman 1st Class
For those interested in the Short Sunderland hitting things in the water, I just finished reading "Many A Close Run Thing" by Tom Enright, retired RNZAF. He spent 4 years flying them around the Pacific and tells many stories about piloting them in all kinds of weather and water on many different missions. He piloted Tiger Moths, Harvards, Devons, Vampires, Short Sunderland and Orions before retiring from RNZAF and then another 20 years with Air New Zealand on the DC-10 and B747. Wonderful book.
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Shortround6
Major General
The "Little" Do 26 even in civilian form grossed about 24% more than a PBY-5A amphibian.
Ranges for the Do 26 need to be taken with dose of salt.
It was intended carry 500kg on the Lisbon to New York route, against prevailing head winds.
The record setting flight from Lisbon to Rio de Janeiro was flown mostly over part of the world were the prevailing winds blow from the east to the west.
I would note that the one of the US commercial flying boats has a somewhat short range but the specification called for something like 2600 miles while flying into a constant 35mph head wind.
Ranges for the Do 26 need to be taken with dose of salt.
It was intended carry 500kg on the Lisbon to New York route, against prevailing head winds.
The record setting flight from Lisbon to Rio de Janeiro was flown mostly over part of the world were the prevailing winds blow from the east to the west.
I would note that the one of the US commercial flying boats has a somewhat short range but the specification called for something like 2600 miles while flying into a constant 35mph head wind.
- Thread starter
- #39
Admiral Beez
Captain
Mars conquers all the ones I listed. I didn't compare every flying boat in existence.
This Mars is/was for sale, You Can Buy The World's Largest Operational Flying Boat For About The Price Of A P-51 Mustang Might be good for flights to the cottage.
fastmongrel
1st Sergeant
Britain's biggest flying boat was the Short Shetland (only 2 built before the end of the war) which had a range of 4,000 miles and an endurance of 25 hours 50 minutes. Not quite a Mars or BV238 but still impressive.
Short Shetland - Wikipedia
Short Shetland - Wikipedia
