Mass produced HS-123s

[nuuumannn]

Not sure if you're just trolling or just not understanding what I'm saying. Clearly in WW2 there were not such things as attack helicopters, even though there were experiments with them dropping bombs and mounting MGs on them. I said as attack helicopter equivalents in the post-Korea sense, though perhaps in the parlance of the time I should have said as 'ground attack aircraft' as CAS was known at the time, though this misses the sense that I mean it. I meant for it to be used in the way modern attack helicopters are, as integral to the divisions or corps they support rather than as separate air force air support.

Okay, here we go. Not trolling at all. I simply don't see the value in doing this. In hindsight it might seem like a good idea, simply because you are informed enough to know that attack helicopters were a thing after WW2, whereas the RLM was simply not. Nor were they informed enough to think that the aircraft was needed, otherwise it would not have been brought out of production. The memory telescoping comes because you know what happened subsequent to the decision not to build the aircraft anymore, whereas those who made the decision did not.

Not sure why you think the requirements for a cheap, affordable, low maintenance attack aircraft rendered the HS123 obsolete given that history showed the exact opposite.

The HS 123 was obsolete because it was too slow, couldn't carry a large or wide variety of weaponry, which, these things meant it was not a versatile adaptable airframe and was out of production, so its use later on was conditional on parts supply. Its use after it ended production does not change that it was obsolete. The use of obsolete weapons took place across the war, that did not change the fact those weapons were obsolete. You improvise with what you have, not necessarily what you want or would like to have. If all you have are obsolete aircraft, you use them because you need them. On the subject of usefulness beyond what was intended, d'you think that strapping Panzerfausts to the wings of Bucker Bestmann aircraft was intended? Do you think they should have all been manufactured that way because they were later used that way?

Europe 279

There were only about 300 available for the invasion of Barbarossa. Only about 360 had been built by September 1st 1939. Again it was designed to be a superior dive bomber, which is the opposite of a CAS aircraft and quite a bit more expensive than the Hs123.

The reason why there were so few LW aircraft available at Barbarossa was due to the losses suffered during the Battle of Britain. The Stuka was withdrawn because of high losses. German aircraft production could barely keep up with losses at that time. In this time the Hs 123 would have been a complete waste of resources as the LW needed more versatile aircraft at the time of Barbarossa. The Stuka was a dive bomber but it could be used in other roles, the D models were modified as tank destroyers and so forth, a more useful airframe than the Hs 123, so why would the LW have kept it in production again? Again to presume the Hs 123 could have been built in lieu of any other offensive aircraft was impracticable for the LW's needs as they were at the time.

So you're either trolling or just completely disengaged from this discussion.

Nope, I don't have to agree with you - fancy that, huh. Can you understand what that means? Just because someone doesn't agree with your premise does not necessarily mean you are being trolled, it means you are being disagreed with, not only that but I have presented my reasons for doing so, to which you have responded with disdain, indicating you don't like being disagreed with. You don't have to accept my disagreements, just like I don't have to agree with your premise. It doesn't mean I am wrong to do so nor does it mean I am trolling. Welcome to adult debate.

 

[wiking85]

Okay, here we go. Not trolling at all. I simply don't see the value in doing this. In hindsight it might seem like a good idea, simply because you are informed enough to know that attack helicopters were a thing after WW2, whereas the RLM was simply not. Nor were they informed enough to think that the aircraft was needed, otherwise it would not have been brought out of production. The memory telescoping comes because you know what happened subsequent to the decision not to build the aircraft anymore, whereas those who made the decision did not.

You do realize this is a what if forum, right? Not a 'what already happened IOTL' forum.
CAS was a thing at the time, I'm just saying they'd make enough of them to used them as army aviation was historically just with a CAS role.

The HS 123 was obsolete because it was too slow, couldn't carry a large or wide variety of weaponry, which, these things meant it was not a versatile adaptable airframe and was out of production, so its use later on was conditional on parts supply. Its use after it ended production does not change that it was obsolete. The use of obsolete weapons took place across the war, that did not change the fact those weapons were obsolete. You improvise with what you have, not necessarily what you want or would like to have. If all you have are obsolete aircraft, you use them because you need them. On the subject of usefulness beyond what was intended, d'you think that strapping Panzerfausts to the wings of Bucker Bestmann aircraft was intended? Do you think they should have all been manufactured that way because they were later used that way?

Obsolete for what? It was historically used and was fantastic for the role I'm suggesting. You seem unable to engage with what ifs productively and shouldn't participate if counterfactuals bother you this much, because you're just engaging in derailing posts.

The reason why there were so few LW aircraft available at Barbarossa was due to the losses suffered during the Battle of Britain. The Stuka was withdrawn because of high losses. German aircraft production could barely keep up with losses at that time. In this time the Hs 123 would have been a complete waste of resources as the LW needed more versatile aircraft at the time of Barbarossa. The Stuka was a dive bomber but it could be used in other roles, the D models were modified as tank destroyers and so forth, a more useful airframe than the Hs 123, so why would the LW have kept it in production again? Again to presume the Hs 123 could have been built in lieu of any other offensive aircraft was impracticable for the LW's needs as they were at the time.

The reason that they had fewer aircraft is 1/3rd of the Luftwaffe was used elsewhere than the Eastern Front. In France they were all in. They kept up with losses, but the fronts expanded massively. No, they didn't need more versatile aircraft, they needed lots of cheap, easy to maintain stuff, which is why the end user kept begging for more since even the Ju87 couldn't handle the environment. Especially one that could generate many more sorties than even the Ju87. The Hs123 did 2.5-3x as many. Again you seem to be confusing dive bombing of the Ju87 with the CAS mission of the Hs123.

Nope, I don't have to agree with you - fancy that, huh. Can you understand what that means? Just because someone doesn't agree with your premise does not necessarily mean you are being trolled, it means you are being disagreed with, not only that but I have presented my reasons for doing so, to which you have responded with disdain, indicating you don't like being disagreed with. You don't have to accept my disagreements, just like I don't have to agree with your premise. It doesn't mean I am wrong to do so nor does it mean I am trolling. Welcome to adult debate.

I mean this since you're derailing the entire thread by completely not understanding the point of it.

 

[BarnOwlLover]

Interestingly, the Germans did use Fiat CR 42s in a ground attack role in northern Italy, but it was for anti-resistance and harassment raids. They were on occasion used against the Allies, though, such as at Anzio.

 

[wiking85]

Interestingly, the Germans did use Fiat CR 42s in a ground attack role in northern Italy, but it was for anti-resistance and harassment raids. They were on occasion used against the Allies, though, such as at Anzio.

As night harassment bombers? They did that in the east too with even crappier old aircraft and trainers. Also to be fair the air defense problem was much were vs. the western allies compared to the Soviets. The CR 42 was used for ground attack in North Africa too, but being a fighter design it wasn't as effective as the dive designed Hs123 and lacked the same payload.

 

[Shortround6]

dive designed Hs123 and lacked the same payload.

A bit debatable.
The Cr 42s are usually rated a pair of 220lb bombs, but only a pair, not 4 of something smaller.
The Hs 123 carried (mostly) four 110lb bombs, but rarely anything larger despite the under fuselage crutch.
Now finding pictures of CR 42s with bombs (aside from models) is rare, but it seems to easier than finding Hs 123s with 20mm guns or small bomb containers or bombs under the fuselage. I have not spent a lot of time looking so if anybody has such photos please direct me.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Cr 42s are usually rated a pair of 220lb bombs, but only a pair, not 4 of something smaller.

FWIW:

 

[wiking85]

Given the disputes here about the OP, how about this as a pathway to keeping it in production:
Instead of being canceled in 1939 and having the jigs destroyed it is retained in relatively low level production (say 50 per month) until the HS129 is ready to replace it in the attack aircraft role; when the war rolls around and the HS129's development problems keep cropping up it is ramped up in production in mid/late 1940 for Barbarossa (say 100 per month) to ensure there are enough attack aircraft. For clarity the HS123C would be produced starting in 1939. As the war drags on in the east, the virtues of the aircraft are recognized, and the HS129 proves underwhelming production is increased further. ITTL the Hs129 won't be produced until the B-1 version (the A-series sucked) and due to that not being production ready until December 1941 and only slowly introduced due to it's overall poor performance.

For Barbarossa roughly 280 would be available in service in 7 Gruppe of 40 aircraft each, so 280 total. Roughly 6 times as many as were available IOTL for June 1941. Distribution: 4 for AG-Center, 2 for AG-South, and 1 for AG-North. 1 each attached to a panzer army and the remainder assigned to the army group to be deployed as needed. With about 100-150 produced per month and HS129s starting in 1942 supplementing it as specialized tank busters and given their overall low loss rate (IOTL most seemed to have been lost due to lack of replacement parts due to it being taken out of production, but even then 4 were still on hand in February 1945!) the 280 number should expand. Having spare/replacement parts would be a massive help over OTL due to attrition mainly being related to lack of ability to repair aircraft and overuse of existing airframes. Probably reasonable that up to 500 would be in service by mid-1942 even with all cause losses in 1941, since even with 100 being produced per month by 1941 that would be 1200 per year. If production is expanded due to demand it isn't unreasonable to expect that with 150 per month output they could push numbers up to ~800 at the front (not necessarily operational though) in 1943. Obviously they'd be nearly exclusively used in the East. Maybe North Africa, as the Hs129 was deployed there. Perhaps later in Italy for night operations.

As to impact in 1941, IOTL the ~40 aircraft gruppe was attached to 3rd panzer army, so ITTL AG-Center would have 4x more attack aviation groups supporting them. Assuming some sort of force multiplication it is entirely possible that they are able to close and keep closed the Smolensk pocket, which would have substantial impacts on Soviet abilities to resist in front of Moscow. AG-North having any at all would be a major help especially operating in the Baltic region. Later around Leningrad having dedicated LA/AR and CAS support would be quite helpful to holding the line and perhaps even making the Tikhvin operation successful, especially if they are able to obtain a newly formed extra gruppe or even 2.

Having all weather aircraft able to render air support during that operation would be a substantial change, especially if they could also function as aerial recon. Leningrad falling due to lack of supply would be a massive strategic impact. I'm sure there will be a lot of pushback on that, but having zero CAS support IOTL vs. having 40-80 dedicated all weather CAS capable of 5 sorties per day is a rather massive force multiplier, especially given the limited size of the battle spaces I'm talking about here. I cannot find any information that IOTL there was any significant Luftwaffe support available during the defensive period at Tikhvin, so even having ~40 dedicated CAS aircraft (newly formed gruppe arrived during course of Barbarossa) would be a rather major change. 1st Air Fleet had only He111s and Ju88s, which were mostly immobilized by December 1941. After all 3rd panzer army held Kalinin for 2 months against heavier attacks despite being cut off from ground supplies thanks to CAS air support. Plus the weather hampered Soviet ground and air operations, so having to deal with constant air attack would severely complicate operations for the Soviets.

 

[mack8]

I recall reading that by wars end there were as many as 3000 BMW-132 engines sitting in depots. So with that in mind it seems that 1000 or even 1500 extra Hs-123s can be had easily while leaving plenty of spare engines. But the question is would the extra Hs-123 production interfere with other much needed aircraft?

And really on a parallel track of mine of reduced number of types, don't build Hs-129 at all and keep building Hs-123. With the engine number being the limitation perhaps a maximum of 2000 Hs-123 can be built. Since also about 7000 Jumo-211 engines were sitting in depots by wars end, how about another 3000-3500 Ju-87s being built (if capacity an somehow be found), mostly of the versions adapted for CAS. Was the Hs-129 any better than the Ju-87 for CAS?

So the Schlachtflieger would have loads of aircraft available, they just need to find enough pilots. Plus they can export more to their allies, Romania had the 8th Assault Group with Hs-129 from 1943, plus one other planned but never raised, so ITTL they could receive enough aircraft for both. And earlier they used the obsolete IAR-37 and PZL-23 as bombers, so they could have received Hs-123 and Ju-87 instead that would have been much more effective. Not sure the situation with hungarian units, i know they received Ju-87s, presumably one or two Hs-123 squadrons/units would have been handy too (i know they flew He-46s, but not sure if for CAS)

 

[tomo pauk]

I recall reading that by wars end there were as many as 3000 BMW-132 engines sitting in depots. So with that in mind it seems that 1000 or even 1500 extra Hs-123s can be had easily while leaving plenty of spare engines. But the question is would the extra Hs-123 production interfere with other much needed aircraft?

And really on a parallel track of mine of reduced number of types, don't build Hs-129 at all and keep building Hs-123. With the engine number being the limitation perhaps a maximum of 2000 Hs-123 can be built. Since also about 7000 Jumo-211 engines were sitting in depots by wars end, how about another 3000-3500 Ju-87s being built (if capacity an somehow be found), mostly of the versions adapted for CAS. Was the Hs-129 any better than the Ju-87 for CAS?

There was several missed opportunities for Germany/LW to make the Allied war effort even more demanding. Making the obsolete aircraft en masse, while not having enough pilots to use them would not represent a missed opportunity, but a waste of resources. Usage of fuel vs. the payload_times_weight was also a downside of the Hs 123.
The 3000 of BMW 132s were probably the 'legacy' 132s (A, E, T, Z), becoming a surplus once Ju 52 production was curtailed? If these were the better 132s, these with 900-1000 HP, such engines on the Ju 87 should've provided greater payload vs. installing them on Hs 123s.

The surplus Jumo 211 should've find their place on Italian, Finnish and Romanian aircraft. Or even on Bf 109s and/or 110s.

 

[GrauGeist]

Regardless of aircraft type, late war Germany simply didn't have the pilots or fuel to put up a strong defense (let alone an offense). A prime example being the Me262, which saw over 1,400 airframes produced but less than 400 ever being operated - and those that were, were flown by pilots who held rank from Lt. General to Airman First Class.

In regards to helicopters of WWII, yes, some were operational, but the technology to make them an effective fighting platform was still deep in the learning curve.
They were woefully slow (100mph or less) and lacked the ability to carry much of a warload.
I believe the Fa223 was about the only wartime helicopter that could carry a significant load, being about 2,200 pounds at a speed.of little over 100mph.

And the prime reason why the Hs123 production was asked to be renewed in 1943 was not because of it's combat prowess, but rather because of it's ability to operate in poor weather conditions that prevented other types from getting airborn.

Also, how would the Hs123 have handled the Soviet counter-attack at Kursk on 8 July, which was traditionally halted by Hauptmann Meyer and his four squadrons of Hs129s?

The OP is an interesting "what-if" proposal, but I just don't see the value in keeping the Hs123 in production/deployment in any greater numbers than did historically.

 

[Shortround6]

I believe the Fa223 was about the only wartime helicopter that could carry a significant load, being about 2,200 pounds at a speed.of little over 100mph.

A lot of the early Helicopters (even the S-55 in the early 50s) traded fuel for payload in the spec sheets. Sometimes you don't get max listed range unless you are carrying the crew only.
There is also the vertical take-off weight (and very strict temperature guide lines) and rolling take-off weight.
Hover ceiling or take-off heights can be thousands of feet lower that service ceiling.
Gas turbine engines were a game changer. Many of the GT engines were flat rated and gave constant power/torque to the drive system for thousands of feet of altitude and or dozens of degrees more temperature.

Early S-55s with a cabin full of people (seats for eight) had a range of a few dozen miles, if they had a good tail wind.

 

[GrauGeist]

To expand a little in my earlier mention of steep learning curve, the early helos also had CG issues, like Sikorsky's early types, which incorporated iron ballast rods that had to be adjusted in order to compensate for different load profiles.

 

[wiking85]

I recall reading that by wars end there were as many as 3000 BMW-132 engines sitting in depots. So with that in mind it seems that 1000 or even 1500 extra Hs-123s can be had easily while leaving plenty of spare engines. But the question is would the extra Hs-123 production interfere with other much needed aircraft?

Any idea what the source is on that? I'd say the HS129 production would be interfered with, otherwise probably not, as the Me210 fiasco cost Germany 2000 aircraft not built due to switching production lines back and forth, so the material and labor was there, just idle.

And really on a parallel track of mine of reduced number of types, don't build Hs-129 at all and keep building Hs-123. With the engine number being the limitation perhaps a maximum of 2000 Hs-123 can be built. Since also about 7000 Jumo-211 engines were sitting in depots by wars end, how about another 3000-3500 Ju-87s being built (if capacity an somehow be found), mostly of the versions adapted for CAS. Was the Hs-129 any better than the Ju-87 for CAS?

Yes, the Ju87 cannon ground attack aircraft sucked. Accuracy was abysmal with even Rudel's claims being proven wildly optimistic in terms of direct cannon fire kills.
The twin engine design allowed for better sight and accuracy. The Ju87 had a limited period of utility, so more beyond 1942 is probably a waste.

So the Schlachtflieger would have loads of aircraft available, they just need to find enough pilots. Plus they can export more to their allies, Romania had the 8th Assault Group with Hs-129 from 1943, plus one other planned but never raised, so ITTL they could receive enough aircraft for both. And earlier they used the obsolete IAR-37 and PZL-23 as bombers, so they could have received Hs-123 and Ju-87 instead that would have been much more effective. Not sure the situation with hungarian units, i know they received Ju-87s, presumably one or two Hs-123 squadrons/units would have been handy too (i know they flew He-46s, but not sure if for CAS)

Given that the HS123 was used as a basic flight training aircraft, it was very easy to use and train on. No need for 2nd round of training on more advanced types. Probably could easily turn out pilots with 100 hours or less of training, which is less than 50% of the time needed for even the Me109 in 1942. Lower quality pilots could be used and the Luftwaffe had a bunch of surplus personnel even as early as 1942.

 

[wiking85]

There was several missed opportunities for Germany/LW to make the Allied war effort even more demanding. Making the obsolete aircraft en masse, while not having enough pilots to use them would not represent a missed opportunity, but a waste of resources. Usage of fuel vs. the payload_times_weight was also a downside of the Hs 123.
The 3000 of BMW 132s were probably the 'legacy' 132s (A, E, T, Z), becoming a surplus once Ju 52 production was curtailed? If these were the better 132s, these with 900-1000 HP, such engines on the Ju 87 should've provided greater payload vs. installing them on Hs 123s.

The surplus Jumo 211 should've find their place on Italian, Finnish and Romanian aircraft. Or even on Bf 109s and/or 110s.

Or Ju52s earlier

 

[tomo pauk]

Or Ju52s earlier

Please, do expand.

 

[Shortround6]

Given that the HS123 was used as a basic flight training aircraft, it was very easy to use and train on. No need for 2nd round of training on more advanced types. Probably could easily turn out pilots with 100 hours or less of training, which is less than 50% of the time needed for even the Me109 in 1942. Lower quality pilots could be used and the Luftwaffe had a bunch of surplus personnel even as early as 1942.

Needs a bit more evidence. Turning any basic student pilot loose in any 880hp engine aircraft is a recipe for disaster.
If they actually used one for basic training it may say more about a shortage of aircraft than the suitability of Hs 123.

"ok Hans, you have gotten 34 hours of flight training and have soloed in the Bu 131 Jungmann.
We are short of Ar 96s today so just jump into that old Hs 123 over there and practice touch and goes for hour or so."

 

[GrauGeist]

Yes, the Ju87 cannon ground attack aircraft sucked. Accuracy was abysmal with even Rudel's claims being proven wildly optimistic in terms of direct cannon fire kills.
The twin engine design allowed for better sight and accuracy.

The Ju87G was proven the be fairly accurate, however, the Hs129, with it's centerline cannon, even more so.

Rudel did overclaim, but the fact remains that the Panzerknackers (Ju87G, Hs129B/C) made their presence felt on far more than just enemy tanks.

 

[Denniss]

They should have made a deal with the Italians - CR.42 for Bf 109. Probably easier than to rebuild the Jigs for the Hs 123. Or they could have adapted the Hs 126 for the nuisance bomber role, this a/c was in production until 1941.

 

[wiking85]

The Ju87G was proven the be fairly accurate, however, the Hs129, with it's centerline cannon, even more so.

Rudel did overclaim, but the fact remains that the Panzerknackers (Ju87G, Hs129B/C) made their presence felt on far more than just enemy tanks.

Is there a source on that? I've read the opposite

 

[wiking85]

Needs a bit more evidence. Turning any basic student pilot loose in any 880hp engine aircraft is a recipe for disaster.
If they actually used one for basic training it may say more about a shortage of aircraft than the suitability of Hs 123.

"ok Hans, you have gotten 34 hours of flight training and have soloed in the Bu 131 Jungmann.
We are short of Ar 96s today so just jump into that old Hs 123 over there and practice touch and goes for hour or so."

I've read multiple sources about many being used for flight training and that is was very easy to fly. The fact that it was out of production since 1939, but still functional models existed in service as of 1945 despite extreme use says a lot about their reliability, ease of use, and robustness. Again your glibness really makes it seem like you're trolling like the other bloke.