Mass produced HS-123s

[wiking85]

The conversation does seem to have become somewhat fixated upon tank killing for which x2 37mm guns under a Ju87 is appropriate but the Hs 123 role was more lobbing small bombs right on machine guns and so forth. Low level tactical support. More airborne infantry than airborne artillery. Slinging more weight of armament means more aeroplane and more aeroplane means more complexity and higher quality airfields. What the Hs 123 brought was a minimum effective firepower for that infantry task coupled with the minimum effective aeroplane to carry it at a maximum speed that can be actual used at these very low heights and easily maintained in the open even in winter and rain from muddy short fields. Whatever the intended role when designed and ordered it was not used either as a lightweight Ju87 alternative nor a heavy night nuisance bomber. If the Ju87 was an airborne artillery piece (which was what it was meant to be) then the Hs123 became an airborne mortar.

Whether the pilots liked it or not the Luftwaffe command liked the ready combat availability in all weathers and explored its return to production for that reason. I am therefore reminded of modern operational experiences where air support is very effective but not when it has to go away to refuel and rearm or the weather is awful etc. whilst artillery can always be available unless on another fire mission regardless of weather and time of day.

The peer counterparts of the Hs123 were the much larger and multi mission army co-operation class that almost all air forces had in their inventory in 1939 such as the Hs126, Westland Lysander etc. but focused solely upon the tactical air support task at extreme low level. Albeit it came in as a dive bomber. I doubt if it did much actual dive bombing in Russia. The Ju87 and Hs129 comparison is a red herring and the Fw190 only more so. The Hs129 being diverted to tank killing so more in the Ju87 mode. I would controversially question whether one could usefully improve upon the Hs123 without weakening its principal advantages.

To make best use of it then it should become an army resource not an air force one. Far too controversial for the infighting cliques of the day and remains a controversial question even now. A good radio system with forward observation officers in direct contact with their aeroplanes clearing the way for the ground troops and covering retreats with fire. Schlachtgeschwader not Sturzkampfgeschwader.

There is a documented case of an HS123 chasing 43 T-34s into a swamp in 1941 where they were all lost. Also 50kg bombs were essentially 160mm artillery shells, deployed by a dive bomber with biplane maneuverability.

 

[wiking85]

I am not.
The Ha 137 might've been able to lug around two MK 101/103 cannons much better than it would've been the case with the Hs 123. Not being the slowest thing on the sky means that I-153s, I-16s, Gladiators and even Il-2s will not be able to make pot shots at it.

How do you figure? It was slower and heavier than the Hs123 and had a weaker engine. Redesigning it for a radial would worsen the aerodynamics.

 

[Shortround6]

I did find a monograph that did mention using cluster bombs for the HS123 instead of 4x 50kg bombs

I have seen references, I can't find photos, doesn't mean they don't exist, might just mean I haven't looked hard enough.

See Post #19.

 

[tomo pauk]

How do you figure? It was slower and heavier than the Hs123 and had a weaker engine. Redesigning it for a radial would worsen the aerodynamics.

Hs 123 was slightly faster, and was with better power.
Monoplanes were both heavier and more streamlined than the biplanes of the day. Redesigning the Ha 137 for the radial would've added 50% more HP.

 

[Shortround6]

Redesigning the Ha 137 for the radial would've added 50% more HP.

Kind of, Ha 137 V1-3 had the radial engines, Ha 137 V4-6 got the Jumo 210s.
Yes they would have gotten 50% more power, they didn't have to redesign much, maybe beef up a little for the extra power. Just blow the dust off the earlier drawings.

Both of these planes (Hs 123 and Ha 137) were a lot smaller and lighter than the Ju-87, especially the Ju-87D.

 

[wiking85]

Hs 123 was slightly faster, and was with better power.
Monoplanes were both heavier and more streamlined than the biplanes of the day. Redesigning the Ha 137 for the radial would've added 50% more HP.

Which radial? I was assuming they'd use the same engine as the Hs123 as that is the only confirmed surplus radial

 

[wiking85]

Hs 123 was slightly faster, and was with better power.
Monoplanes were both heavier and more streamlined than the biplanes of the day. Redesigning the Ha 137 for the radial would've added 50% more HP.

Also did the prototype Ha 137 have armor and armament? The HS123 numbers I'm quoting are actual service models, not prototypes. Much of the Ha137 numbers regarding weapons are probably estimated.

 

[tomo pauk]

Which radial? I was assuming they'd use the same engine as the Hs123 as that is the only confirmed surplus radial

Probably one of the BMW 132s (850-900 HP; the legacy models with 660-725 HP will not cut it) or one of the Bramo 323s (900-1000 HP).

 

[Shortround6]

Also did the prototype Ha 137 have armor and armament? The HS123 numbers I'm quoting are actual service models, not prototypes

I don't think the Hs 123 had much in the way of armor or protection. Since production stopped in 1938 and the Germans were not fitting any aircraft with protection in 1938 it is hard see them doing it to the Hs 123. What units in field did with bits of armor pulled out of wrecks I have no idea. But it won't show up in official weights either.

 

[tomo pauk]

Also did the prototype Ha 137 have armor and armament? The HS123 numbers I'm quoting are actual service models, not prototypes. Much of the Ha137 numbers regarding weapons are probably estimated.

Armor on the Hs 123 - probably not. Actual service models were not carrying the often-touted 450 kg bomb load, either.

 

[mack8]

Any idea what the source is on that? I'd say the HS129 production would be interfered with, otherwise probably not, as the Me210 fiasco cost Germany 2000 aircraft not built due to switching production lines back and forth, so the material and labor was there, just idle.

Yes, the Ju87 cannon ground attack aircraft sucked. Accuracy was abysmal with even Rudel's claims being proven wildly optimistic in terms of direct cannon fire kills.
The twin engine design allowed for better sight and accuracy. The Ju87 had a limited period of utility, so more beyond 1942 is probably a waste.

Given that the HS123 was used as a basic flight training aircraft, it was very easy to use and train on. No need for 2nd round of training on more advanced types. Probably could easily turn out pilots with 100 hours or less of training, which is less than 50% of the time needed for even the Me109 in 1942. Lower quality pilots could be used and the Luftwaffe had a bunch of surplus personnel even as early as 1942.

The numbers re BMW-132/Jumo-211 come from the Vajda/Dancey book on german WW2 aircraft production. There are some exact figures there, i just rounded them up.

For this scenario, another use for the extra Hs-123 would be for the night harassment units, which OTL used a motley collection of trainers, obsolete aircraft etc. Presumably the more rugged Hs-123 would be more suitable, and if they need to i'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to make a two-seat version. So then the trainers are kept as trainers rather than diverted.

 

[mack8]

There was several missed opportunities for Germany/LW to make the Allied war effort even more demanding. Making the obsolete aircraft en masse, while not having enough pilots to use them would not represent a missed opportunity, but a waste of resources. Usage of fuel vs. the payload_times_weight was also a downside of the Hs 123.
The 3000 of BMW 132s were probably the 'legacy' 132s (A, E, T, Z), becoming a surplus once Ju 52 production was curtailed? If these were the better 132s, these with 900-1000 HP, such engines on the Ju 87 should've provided greater payload vs. installing them on Hs 123s.

The surplus Jumo 211 should've find their place on Italian, Finnish and Romanian aircraft. Or even on Bf 109s and/or 110s.

Well since this topic is on Hs-123 i went with that scenario. The basic consideration also being that in a world war, rather than having those engines rotting in depots beter have them powering an airframe, any airframe that can actually contribute something to the war effort, even if Hs-123 or Ju-87.

Me i can't see many uses for the BMW-132 since it does't have much power, other than for transports be it extra Ju-52s or perhaps other types like Ar-232 or Me-323, or planes like Hs-123 or maybe Hs-129 etc. But indeed the powerful Jumo-211 would be good powering italian aircraft, be it Macchis, Fiats or Reggianes (thousands of them can be had, even if just re-engining the OTL airframes that were built during the war with radials) and/or indeed IAR-80. Or the germans can use them simply for more Ju-88s (but that required a reduction in types as i proposed elsewhere, at least cancelling the disastruous He-177 and Me-210). Whatever combination ought to be better than just sitting on 10,000 engines.

 

[wiking85]

Probably one of the BMW 132s (850-900 HP; the legacy models with 660-725 HP will not cut it) or one of the Bramo 323s (900-1000 HP).

Ok, so a heavier aircraft is going to use the same engine as the HS123. Its performance would be better? The design of that aircraft wasn't exactly aerodynamic even with the monowing.

 

[wiking85]

I don't think the Hs 123 had much in the way of armor or protection. Since production stopped in 1938 and the Germans were not fitting any aircraft with protection in 1938 it is hard see them doing it to the Hs 123. What units in field did with bits of armor pulled out of wrecks I have no idea. But it won't show up in official weights either.

It has some and was quite durable in combat due to its construction. It was all metal, so quite sturdy as it was designed for 90 degree dives. Production effectively stopped in 1939, not '38 from what I can find. Granted early 1939.

 

[wiking85]

Armor on the Hs 123 - probably not. Actual service models were not carrying the often-touted 450 kg bomb load, either.

Sure, because it would cut into fuel. They'd really only need the 250kg for specialized missions, but since the Ju87 existed it wasn't often that it was needed and the extra fuel was more helpful for CAS missions as they could stay on station longer.

 

[tomo pauk]

Ok, so a heavier aircraft is going to use the same engine as the HS123. Its performance would be better? The design of that aircraft wasn't exactly aerodynamic even with the monowing.

Heavier aircraft had no problem being the faster ones. It was extra drag that was slowing the aircraft (making the biplanes worse than monoplanes in that regard), extra weight had a far less influence on speed. RoC will be lower, but it is not like we are making a fighter of the Ha 137.

Ha 137 can receive the fully enclosed cockpit and/or sort of a retractable U/C to help further with the speed. It can also receive the Jumo 211 engine to make it even faster.

 

[wiking85]

Heavier aircraft had no problem being the faster ones. It was extra drag that was slowing the aircraft (making the biplanes worse than monoplanes in that regard), extra weight had a far less influence on speed. RoC will be lower, but it is not like we are making a fighter of the Ha 137.

Ha 137 can receive the fully enclosed cockpit and/or sort of a retractable U/C to help further with the speed. It can also receive the Jumo 211 engine to make it even faster.

The Ha137 was not designed as a low drag aircraft, it was designed to be a maneuverable mono-wing. If you end up installing the 211, then you just have a Ju87 copy.

 

[tomo pauk]

The Ha137 was not designed as a low drag aircraft, it was designed to be a maneuverable mono-wing.

Perhaps the intention was not to make it as a very low-drag A/C, but it was one of sleeker bombers around in second half of 1930s. Wing size was between the P-40 and Hurricane.

If you end up installing the 211, then you just have a Ju87 copy.

I end up with a less draggy A/C than it was the Ju 87. Lower drag = greater speed.
We can compare the Battle and Henley - on same engine, the later was faster by 40 mph, due to it's smaller size and lower drag.

 

[Shortround6]

We can compare the Battle and Henley - on same engine, the later was faster by 40 mph, due to it's smaller size and lower drag.

The Henley also carried 1/2 the bomb load.

The Ju-87A with Jumo engine was just over 25% heavier empty than the Ha 137.
The Ju-87A could carry an 1100lb bomb as a single seater.
The Ju-87 had about 70% more range than the Ha 137.
The Ha 137 may have been unsuitable as it stood for a warplane. The designer had bought into the 1930s fad of using integral fuel tanks. The tubular main spar was sealed off and used as the fuel tank, much like the wing of the Brewster Buffalo. (270 liters in the main spar). This makes for light weight. It also makes for difficult repairs from battle damage.

The Ha 137 might have been a better close support plane. But it would not do the Ju-87s job. Low drag or not.

 

[MIflyer]

I think that ICM is coming out with a 1/32 HS123.