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Not sure if you're just trolling or just not understanding what I'm saying. Clearly in WW2 there were not such things as attack helicopters, even though there were experiments with them dropping bombs and mounting MGs on them. I said as attack helicopter equivalents in the post-Korea sense, though perhaps in the parlance of the time I should have said as 'ground attack aircraft' as CAS was known at the time, though this misses the sense that I mean it. I meant for it to be used in the way modern attack helicopters are, as integral to the divisions or corps they support rather than as separate air force air support.
Not sure why you think the requirements for a cheap, affordable, low maintenance attack aircraft rendered the HS123 obsolete given that history showed the exact opposite.
There were only about 300 available for the invasion of Barbarossa. Only about 360 had been built by September 1st 1939. Again it was designed to be a superior dive bomber, which is the opposite of a CAS aircraft and quite a bit more expensive than the Hs123.
So you're either trolling or just completely disengaged from this discussion.
You do realize this is a what if forum, right? Not a 'what already happened IOTL' forum.Okay, here we go. Not trolling at all. I simply don't see the value in doing this. In hindsight it might seem like a good idea, simply because you are informed enough to know that attack helicopters were a thing after WW2, whereas the RLM was simply not. Nor were they informed enough to think that the aircraft was needed, otherwise it would not have been brought out of production. The memory telescoping comes because you know what happened subsequent to the decision not to build the aircraft anymore, whereas those who made the decision did not.
Obsolete for what? It was historically used and was fantastic for the role I'm suggesting. You seem unable to engage with what ifs productively and shouldn't participate if counterfactuals bother you this much, because you're just engaging in derailing posts.The HS 123 was obsolete because it was too slow, couldn't carry a large or wide variety of weaponry, which, these things meant it was not a versatile adaptable airframe and was out of production, so its use later on was conditional on parts supply. Its use after it ended production does not change that it was obsolete. The use of obsolete weapons took place across the war, that did not change the fact those weapons were obsolete. You improvise with what you have, not necessarily what you want or would like to have. If all you have are obsolete aircraft, you use them because you need them. On the subject of usefulness beyond what was intended, d'you think that strapping Panzerfausts to the wings of Bucker Bestmann aircraft was intended? Do you think they should have all been manufactured that way because they were later used that way?
The reason that they had fewer aircraft is 1/3rd of the Luftwaffe was used elsewhere than the Eastern Front. In France they were all in. They kept up with losses, but the fronts expanded massively. No, they didn't need more versatile aircraft, they needed lots of cheap, easy to maintain stuff, which is why the end user kept begging for more since even the Ju87 couldn't handle the environment. Especially one that could generate many more sorties than even the Ju87. The Hs123 did 2.5-3x as many. Again you seem to be confusing dive bombing of the Ju87 with the CAS mission of the Hs123.The reason why there were so few LW aircraft available at Barbarossa was due to the losses suffered during the Battle of Britain. The Stuka was withdrawn because of high losses. German aircraft production could barely keep up with losses at that time. In this time the Hs 123 would have been a complete waste of resources as the LW needed more versatile aircraft at the time of Barbarossa. The Stuka was a dive bomber but it could be used in other roles, the D models were modified as tank destroyers and so forth, a more useful airframe than the Hs 123, so why would the LW have kept it in production again? Again to presume the Hs 123 could have been built in lieu of any other offensive aircraft was impracticable for the LW's needs as they were at the time.
I mean this since you're derailing the entire thread by completely not understanding the point of it.Nope, I don't have to agree with you - fancy that, huh. Can you understand what that means? Just because someone doesn't agree with your premise does not necessarily mean you are being trolled, it means you are being disagreed with, not only that but I have presented my reasons for doing so, to which you have responded with disdain, indicating you don't like being disagreed with. You don't have to accept my disagreements, just like I don't have to agree with your premise. It doesn't mean I am wrong to do so nor does it mean I am trolling. Welcome to adult debate.
As night harassment bombers? They did that in the east too with even crappier old aircraft and trainers. Also to be fair the air defense problem was much were vs. the western allies compared to the Soviets. The CR 42 was used for ground attack in North Africa too, but being a fighter design it wasn't as effective as the dive designed Hs123 and lacked the same payload.Interestingly, the Germans did use Fiat CR 42s in a ground attack role in northern Italy, but it was for anti-resistance and harassment raids. They were on occasion used against the Allies, though, such as at Anzio.
A bit debatable.dive designed Hs123 and lacked the same payload.
I recall reading that by wars end there were as many as 3000 BMW-132 engines sitting in depots. So with that in mind it seems that 1000 or even 1500 extra Hs-123s can be had easily while leaving plenty of spare engines. But the question is would the extra Hs-123 production interfere with other much needed aircraft?
And really on a parallel track of mine of reduced number of types, don't build Hs-129 at all and keep building Hs-123. With the engine number being the limitation perhaps a maximum of 2000 Hs-123 can be built. Since also about 7000 Jumo-211 engines were sitting in depots by wars end, how about another 3000-3500 Ju-87s being built (if capacity an somehow be found), mostly of the versions adapted for CAS. Was the Hs-129 any better than the Ju-87 for CAS?
A lot of the early Helicopters (even the S-55 in the early 50s) traded fuel for payload in the spec sheets. Sometimes you don't get max listed range unless you are carrying the crew only.I believe the Fa223 was about the only wartime helicopter that could carry a significant load, being about 2,200 pounds at a speed.of little over 100mph.
Any idea what the source is on that? I'd say the HS129 production would be interfered with, otherwise probably not, as the Me210 fiasco cost Germany 2000 aircraft not built due to switching production lines back and forth, so the material and labor was there, just idle.I recall reading that by wars end there were as many as 3000 BMW-132 engines sitting in depots. So with that in mind it seems that 1000 or even 1500 extra Hs-123s can be had easily while leaving plenty of spare engines. But the question is would the extra Hs-123 production interfere with other much needed aircraft?
Yes, the Ju87 cannon ground attack aircraft sucked. Accuracy was abysmal with even Rudel's claims being proven wildly optimistic in terms of direct cannon fire kills.And really on a parallel track of mine of reduced number of types, don't build Hs-129 at all and keep building Hs-123. With the engine number being the limitation perhaps a maximum of 2000 Hs-123 can be built. Since also about 7000 Jumo-211 engines were sitting in depots by wars end, how about another 3000-3500 Ju-87s being built (if capacity an somehow be found), mostly of the versions adapted for CAS. Was the Hs-129 any better than the Ju-87 for CAS?
Given that the HS123 was used as a basic flight training aircraft, it was very easy to use and train on. No need for 2nd round of training on more advanced types. Probably could easily turn out pilots with 100 hours or less of training, which is less than 50% of the time needed for even the Me109 in 1942. Lower quality pilots could be used and the Luftwaffe had a bunch of surplus personnel even as early as 1942.So the Schlachtflieger would have loads of aircraft available, they just need to find enough pilots. Plus they can export more to their allies, Romania had the 8th Assault Group with Hs-129 from 1943, plus one other planned but never raised, so ITTL they could receive enough aircraft for both. And earlier they used the obsolete IAR-37 and PZL-23 as bombers, so they could have received Hs-123 and Ju-87 instead that would have been much more effective. Not sure the situation with hungarian units, i know they received Ju-87s, presumably one or two Hs-123 squadrons/units would have been handy too (i know they flew He-46s, but not sure if for CAS)
Or Ju52s earlierThere was several missed opportunities for Germany/LW to make the Allied war effort even more demanding. Making the obsolete aircraft en masse, while not having enough pilots to use them would not represent a missed opportunity, but a waste of resources. Usage of fuel vs. the payload_times_weight was also a downside of the Hs 123.
The 3000 of BMW 132s were probably the 'legacy' 132s (A, E, T, Z), becoming a surplus once Ju 52 production was curtailed? If these were the better 132s, these with 900-1000 HP, such engines on the Ju 87 should've provided greater payload vs. installing them on Hs 123s.
The surplus Jumo 211 should've find their place on Italian, Finnish and Romanian aircraft. Or even on Bf 109s and/or 110s.
Please, do expand.Or Ju52s earlier
Needs a bit more evidence. Turning any basic student pilot loose in any 880hp engine aircraft is a recipe for disaster.Given that the HS123 was used as a basic flight training aircraft, it was very easy to use and train on. No need for 2nd round of training on more advanced types. Probably could easily turn out pilots with 100 hours or less of training, which is less than 50% of the time needed for even the Me109 in 1942. Lower quality pilots could be used and the Luftwaffe had a bunch of surplus personnel even as early as 1942.
The Ju87G was proven the be fairly accurate, however, the Hs129, with it's centerline cannon, even more so.Yes, the Ju87 cannon ground attack aircraft sucked. Accuracy was abysmal with even Rudel's claims being proven wildly optimistic in terms of direct cannon fire kills.
The twin engine design allowed for better sight and accuracy.
Is there a source on that? I've read the oppositeThe Ju87G was proven the be fairly accurate, however, the Hs129, with it's centerline cannon, even more so.
Rudel did overclaim, but the fact remains that the Panzerknackers (Ju87G, Hs129B/C) made their presence felt on far more than just enemy tanks.
I've read multiple sources about many being used for flight training and that is was very easy to fly. The fact that it was out of production since 1939, but still functional models existed in service as of 1945 despite extreme use says a lot about their reliability, ease of use, and robustness. Again your glibness really makes it seem like you're trolling like the other bloke.Needs a bit more evidence. Turning any basic student pilot loose in any 880hp engine aircraft is a recipe for disaster.
If they actually used one for basic training it may say more about a shortage of aircraft than the suitability of Hs 123.
"ok Hans, you have gotten 34 hours of flight training and have soloed in the Bu 131 Jungmann.
We are short of Ar 96s today so just jump into that old Hs 123 over there and practice touch and goes for hour or so."