Me 109, Spitfire, Zero or Mustang

[P38 Pilot]

Hey, i would rather want an aircraft that can make sure you take the enemy out before the shoot the mess out of your aircraft. The P51 with it's .50s could lay down a can of whoop-asson any German fighter.

The -109, pretty good aircraft. But once the -190 came into the fight, it made the -109 look like a toy.

 

[Holmes]

plan_d: all You have to do to avoid being shooted down by Mustang when flying 109 is to SEE him. That enough Even if she was higher/faster.

P38 pilot: sure, but to open a can U have to keep it at your 12 for few secs. Without that even a dozens of 0.50s are useless And armament is only a part (not so important) of fighter characteristic. F.e. take a look at 190 A8/R8 (2 x deadly stunning MK108). Gunned like a tank but is it enough to shoot down f.e. Yak-3? No, because it little plane can easily outmaneuver 190 and run away using DF tactics (exactly the same as 109 vs. P51).

And we should remember that every plane was build for other missions. 109 was a multipurpose fighter (depending on version), P-51 was a long distance, ESCORT plane. P47 was air superiority, high altitude fighter or jabo, etc, etc.

And one more thing. EVERY dogfights is win or lost by the man and machine (first - the man, then - the machine). The most powerful weapon of every fighter plane is ... brain of it's pilot.

 

[plan_D]

Having the height advantage is important in any combat. The Mustang enters with that advantage straight away. The Mustang also enters with a speed advantage over the Bf-109.

The Bf-109 has to avoid the first passes by the Mustang to bring the Mustang down to his level of combat. It's easier said than done because the vast majority of kills were claimed when their opponent didn't even see him.

Think about that; the majority didn't see who shot them down. That's an advantage to the Mustang as it's got a higher chance of being able to pounce it's enemy as it's flying higher and faster. If the Bf-109 is lucky enough to see it's opponent then the Mustang would be in trouble if it's missed it's first oppurtunities. Then the Mustang would do best to break off from action.

However, the important point is most of those shot down did not see their destroyer!

 

[Parmigiano]

Having the height advantage is important in any combat. The Mustang enters with that advantage straight away. The Mustang also enters with a speed advantage over the Bf-109.
[/i]

.. depending from the 109 model: statement correct for 109 F or early G, late G's almost equivalent to P51D and 109K had better performance, so the concept is reverted.

 

[plan_D]

I think generally the Mustang would still enter higher than the Bf-109 because the Mustang would have already formed at high altitude. It would be roaming ahead of the bomber formation, the German interceptors would have to climb up to meet the Mustangs and, more importantly, the bombers.

 

[Parmigiano]

Well, if we assume that Mustang start higher 'by definitin' then the game is over, as it would be over for any other plane of the pool that start with such an advantage!
But this has nothing to do with the machine itself.

Anyway, according to my books
Me109k @ 3375 kg standard weight
Ceiling 13.500 mt
Time to 10.000 mt : 10min 12s
P51D @ 4450 kg standard weight
Ceiling 12.775 mt (41900ft)
Time to 9000mt : 12 min 36s

So, technically it seems reasonable that with only a 30 minutes alarm the 109k could climb to an higher altitude than the P51D cruise.

And assuming both starting from a scramble, the 109k would leave the 51D several minutes behind

That this did not usually happen because of wrong tactics, lack of fuel, orders to attack the bombers and disregard the fighters, need to preserve a rare-and-precious engine and so on has nothing to do with the airplane.

 

[plan_D]

You're missing the vital point though. The Mustang was not an interceptor like the Bf-109. The P-51 was an escort fighter and to be an escort fighter it would almost always have a height advantage. The fact the the Mustang could hold a height advantage over the enemies own airfield that was several hundred miles away from it's own is something to credit to the Mustang. The Bf-109 certainly could not do the same to the Mustang.

Not only that, the Mustang entered the fight with a speed advantage. It's high cruising speed allowed it to roam the German air space at a speed which would give it that extra energy when entering into a fight.

 

[lesofprimus]

pD, u missed what parm was sayin.... Because of radar, USUALLY, the -109G's were already on station, at altitude, prior to the -51D fighter sweeps...

The -51D's would loose speed in having to increase altitude to attack the -109G's... Ive talked to many pilots, as u know, and most of them verified this...

 

[wmaxt]

Plan_D,

According to a couple of WWII P-51 pilots they cruised at 250mph out of Britain, and up to 350mph out of Italy. The second pilot specificaly pointed out that unless they were in an attack mode they never went faster than 350mph (all speeds TAS) because it used to much fuel.

From the start of escorts to mid summer '44 (the close escort phase 2,000ft max from the bombers) it was common to have Bf-109s bounce from above. The P-51 was pretty much done in by 30,000ft with less than 700hp to work with. Control response is greatly degraded as 30,000ft is passed too. Once freed from the bombers they would send planes ahead and clear the way, and that lessened the high altitude bounces but never eliminated them compleatly.

wmaxt

 

[plan_D]

350 MPH is a fast speed to be entering combat, faster than that of the Bf-109. The bomber formations would be inbetween 15,000 - 30,000 feet, the Mustang would be a more than capable plane at those altitudes.

The Mustang seperates from the formation and goes roaming out in front. The Bf-109s come down on to these Mustangs, if the Mustangs do not see the Bf-109s it's an unlucky day for them because someone is going to get shot down. However, if they do the Bf-109 has to degrade the Mustang to his level. The Mustang is going fast already and it won't take long to go faster, the Bf-109 has to keep pace with the Mustang to shoot him down while keeping his fuel up so he can intercept the bombers when they come.

Something easy for the Mustang to do. An easy plane to fly, an easy plane to fight in and an extremely long range. Something that allows the Mustang to keep these superior interceptors away. That's what makes it an excellent machine; it does it's job and it does it well.

On top of all that though, a bomber formation going at 15,000 feet would allow Mustangs to roam much higher. And they did bomb at 15,000 feet sometimes.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Why would 350 be faster than the 109?

 

[plan_D]

As far as I know the Bf-109 didn't cruise at 350 MPH. Unless it wanted to waste a lot of fuel.

Anyway, I don't know why I'm arguing for the Mustang. I'd rather be in a Spitfire 21.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes that is true but you said that the P-51D's speed of 350mph was faster than the Bf-109. The 109 could go 350mph also. The way you worded just confused me. Ohwell I am on 24 hour Staff Duty tonight so I will be online quite a bit with nothing else to do but answer phones.

 

[plan_D]

Right, I meant that the Mustang would be cruising at a higher speed giving it that initial speed advantage over the Bf-109.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Probably right except for maybe aircraft that were swarming up at full speed to intercept the bombers before they reached there target.

 

[wmaxt]

Right, I meant that the Mustang would be cruising at a higher speed giving it that initial speed advantage over the Bf-109.

Your making 2 assumptions, first the Mustang is going 350 though 3/4 were out of Britain and doing 250. And that the Bf-109 is also at cruise or an earlier model either on the level or in a climb.

Even assuming 350mph in the P-51, the Bf-109 has had warning (radar and time to get positioned) and is 10k above the Mustang (a very common situation) not only is that 109 at full throttle he's in a dive, even a F/G is capable of a 100mph advantage over the Mustang in those situations.

The Bf-109 is always in a high energy state on the attack and the Mustang will always be in an energy conservation state until the attack is imminent or in visual sight. The Mustangs acceleration was only medicore at 2.2mph/sec @ METO throttle.

Of course when the Mustang is attacking and not escorting it will have most of the advantages but that's because he's the one who is prepared not because he cruises faster. Nobody attacks at cruise speed. The attacker will always have the advantage, at least initialy.

wmaxt

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Intersting points that I can agree with.

 

[plan_D]

Which would all be the same for the P-38!

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes but as wmaxt just pointed out, those assumptions are usually wrong unless they are attacking and not escorting. Until they had a foothold on France in late 1944 they did more escorting than attacking.

 

[syscom3]

Didnt the B17 formations fly on the average at 30,000 ft and -24's at 25,000 ft?

If so, the Mustangs were way up there and werent about to be dived upon by 109's.