swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,002
- Jun 25, 2013
Frequently -- nearly always -- xkcd has something relevant:
Me-110 Underrated
- Thread starter Zipper730
- Start date
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Frequently -- nearly always -- xkcd has something relevant:
fubar57
General
GregP
Major
The Bf 110 was a VERY clever ploy to influence future history by making some argue in circles rather than get anything done. Perhaps it was really quite a clever propaganda tool?
Peter Gunn
Master Sergeant
Barrett
Senior Airman
"Ignore this space."
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Wrong thread?
Barrett
Senior Airman
Yup, realized too late I couldn't delete the entire post,but have left it blank. What I get for having 2 screens open!
John Vasco
Senior Airman
Interesting thread to catch up on...
John Vasco
Senior Airman
1. Schnellkampfgeschwader 210 & Zerstörergeschwader 1 against the Soviet Union. Look it up, there is a book about those two units...
2. Erprobungsgruppe 210 always attacked in a shallow dive. No dive brakes, and used the standard gunsight with an 'angle of dive' painted on the side cockpit window. Look it up, there is a book about this unit...
3. From 13th July 1940 to the start of the campaign against land targets in England on 12th August, Erprobungsgruppe 210 carried out attacks on shipping around the East Coast of England. Check out the book mentioned in 'Point 2'...
No gross exaggeration, hyperbole, and noise, just true facts.
Covered very well in "The Most Dangerous Enemy" by Bungay. Erprobungsgruppe 210 showed promising results but had little effect on the battle, too little too late.
John Vasco
Senior Airman
Oh I covered it very well before Stephen, trust me...
Too little, too late? Are you sure?
Of course, we are posting in English. The Me110 was batted out of the game, whatever EPG 210 did had absolutely no effect on the course of the battle. What is the title of your book?
- Thread starter
- #294
Regarding the performance of the Bf 110C: If I recall it had a top-speed around 340-350 mph. What was the typical cruise-speed used in combat, the power on/off stall, the maximum normal rated g-load, and CL Max figures?
I'm also curious as to what the range figures were -- I've gotten conflicting range figures and I can't tell if these differences are based on drop tanks or not.
John Vasco
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Laurelix
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P
pbehn
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S
stona
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swampyankee
I'm also curious as to what the range figures were -- I've gotten conflicting range figures and I can't tell if these differences are based on drop tanks or not.
John Vasco
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Laurelix
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P
pbehn
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S
stona
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swampyankee
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Shortround6
Major General
"Messerschmitt Bf 110: Bombsights Over England"
I will stand by my comments made to the other person posting.
Many aircraft had small numbers used in experimental combat trials. Likewise all manner of aircraft could drop bombs in an attack while descending fairly quickly (shallow dive) this did not make them "dive bombers" although I will admit that the definition of "dive bomber" is a little loose.
The Wellington was cleared to drop bombs while diving at 50 degrees without the bombs hitting the aircraft on the way out, doesn't make it a dive bomber though
A lot of German planes were used for attacks on shipping, many of the He 111s fitted with a 20mm gun in either the nose or front of the gondola/bathtub were used for "shipping" attacks.
I happen to think the Bf 110 was a bit under rated by most people and part of it's worth was it's adaptability to some roles it was not originally intended for. However the poster most of us were disagreeing with seemed to think the 110 was the greatest thing since cold beer and sliced bread together.
Snautzer01
Honourably banned
- 42,417
- Mar 26, 2007
John Vasco has writen books about the Me110. I have a few. Trust me if i say, he is the leading expert on this subject.
John Vasco
Senior Airman
I posted this: "...Too little, too late? Are you sure?..."
Is the 13th July 1940 too late? That's when Erprobungsgruppe 210 carried out its first mission during the Battle of Britain. Too late - I don't understand what you mean. And of course, we are posting in English, given that it my first language.
The Me 110 wasn't batted out of the game. If you examine the losses of the Spitfire, Hurricane, Bf 109 and Bf 110, you will see that all four fighters battered the hell out of their opponents during the Battle. The losses of each ran into hundreds. Yet the 109 appears to get a 'free pass' despite the fact it got knocked down in massive numbers during the Battle. Truth be told, it was no more effective in protecting the Lw bombers than the 110. When you tie the 109 & 110, capable of 350 m.p.h., to close escort to bombers flying at around 200 m.p.h. (less into a headwind), while opposing fighters have no such speed constraint, those 109s and 110s are going to suffer losses they would otherwise not have had, had they been free to range ahead of the bombers at combat speed to intercept the intercepting RAF fighters.
I would suggest that the decisions of those higher up than unit level resulted in the Lw having no effect on the ultimate course of the Battle. 210's raids on the RDF stations on 12th August (when 3 were initially knocked out for some hours) should have been followed up with consistent attacks to wipe them out completely, but those higher up the chain decided not to do so. 210 was almost certainly the main protagonist in having Manston turned into an emergency landing ground by 24th August.
One can argue that whatever ANY LW unit did had no effect on the course of the Battle, for the simple reason that we won.
swampyankee
Chief Master Sergeant
- 4,002
- Jun 25, 2013
I don't think the Bf110 was underrated; it, like almost all twin-engined fighters of its era was not effective in fighter-vs-fighter combat, but it was and reported to be effective in other roles. A more frequent problem with non-expert opinions on Luftwaffe aircraft is that they're over-rated. Part of this is simply post-war propaganda exaggerating the danger of nazi Germany (as if it wasn't dangerous enough); part is post-war apologists who want to push the "Allies won by brute force and ignorance" meme.
There may be as many as three Luftwaffe aircraft that are under-rated: the Hs.123, Hs.129, and the He.219. The Bf.110 is not one of them.
There may be as many as three Luftwaffe aircraft that are under-rated: the Hs.123, Hs.129, and the He.219. The Bf.110 is not one of them.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
All in all, I learn a lot from reviewing threads like these. When you guys try to educate the "un-educatable" I pick up a lot of knowledge without having to flaunt my ignorance.
IDK is the Bf 110 was underrated or overrated, but i know that it was a good fighter until 1941, they could fight with most of fighters they encountered, only v/s a very few it's in clear inferiority but is not hopeless. Take in the count the world was full of old fighters, some were 200s mph, and a 350 mph Bf 110 not need to dogfighting for get result, like as the US fighters in late war don't need dogfighting with the Zero and the Ki 43.
