Yes but the engine was changed only after 3 months of efforts to get the original to work properly. And the a/c also had a drop tank jettisoning promlem which was never corrected. According to Neil on 2/3 of his cross Channel sorties EN237 drop tank didn't discard normally, it inpaled itself on the lugs, either sticking there and greatly reducing a/c's performance or whipping off sometimes later. But my main point was that according to Neil Mk XII was faster than either Typhoon IB or FW 190.
Yes but the engine was changed only after 3 months of efforts to get the original to work properly. And the a/c also had a drop tank jettisoning promlem which was never corrected. According to Neil on 2/3 of his cross Channel sorties EN237 drop tank didn't discard normally, it inpaled itself on the lugs, either sticking there and greatly reducing a/c's performance or whipping off sometimes later. But my main point was that according to Neil Mk XII was faster than either Typhoon IB or FW 190.
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That was the G.55S (S = silurante, or, very roughly, a 'torpedo fighter'). What was the cost in drag with two separated radiators, ease of modification? FWIW I like the idea
What type and thickness were the wing profiles of the G.55 and Re.2005?
That were not of self sealing variety?
SpicyJuan11
Senior Airman
I'll let you know when I get the book.
SpicyJuan11
Senior Airman
It's pure speculation whether the He-100 had or did not have self-sealing fuel tanks unless Short would like to provide a source. I'll look for it in the book that I'm getting.
kool kitty89
Senior Master Sergeant
Indeed, and with the number of changes going to the 109F variant and the (supposed) low parts count and mass production optimization of the He 100, switching over production rather than retooling for the 109F may have made a good deal of sense.
Keeping the 109E in production in the interim also would make sense, though so would have been producing more 109T-2s for applications where the longer span/area would be useful. (shorter take-off/landing, better handling with a bomb or drop tank, better turn rate, better lift/drag ratio -longer range albeit at slower optimal cruise speed- and higher service ceiling)
Also remember that the 190A greatly increased in weight from the A-1 to A-8, and a DB-601 powered version should have been significantly lighter. (enough that it may have had similar wing loading on the original small wing but certainly lower on the large one -and with a high lift airfoil at that, it very well may have out-turned the spitfire and maybe even hurricane while still being faster)
The 190 and He 100 both have better cockpit views and wider track landing gear than the 109, and while the He 100 has no service record to compare accident rates, the 190 was noted for being easier to take-off and land as well as easier to fly in general. (a lighter plane with lower wing loading and lower engine torque, lower stall speed, and more reliable power plant than the 801 initially was, while retaining or expanding on all the handling advantages the 190 offered)
Indeed, from the limited information I've seen, the claims are that the pre-production He 100D-0 used surface cooling with a small, supplemental retractable radiator beneath the cockpit.
The D-1 production aircraft supposedly equipped armor, were armed (and employed as factory defense), along with a deepened rear fuselage housing an expanded belly radiator and elliminating the surface cooling.
One part of the confusion may be that evaporative cooling was still used, but I believe this was true of all German water cooled engines that featured pressurized cooling systems. The coolant was allowed to (partially) boil in the cooling jacket and better transfer heat due to phase transition and particularly avoid hot spots, and featuring a centrifugal steam separator with the radiator being used to both cool the hot liquid and condense the limited amount of steam before returning it to the header tank. Evaporative cooling ended up being quite practical, especially with glycol or similar coolants in short supply (mainly used only as antifreeze in german engines), but it was surface cooling that went nowhere. (being extremely vulnerable, unreliable, and prone to overheating/warping aircraft skin -the same would apply to surface cooling omitting an evaporation/condensation component and simply piping hot coolant along the aircraft wing/fusalage surfaces -which the prototype and D-0 He 100s also did for both oil and coolant)
The sole prototype Fw 187 to be powered by DB 601 engines (not DB 600), I believe the V5, was fitted with similar engines with a pressurized cooling system and retractable radiators and is often confused with surface cooling (which I believe the DB 600 example did use) and may be a result of confusing terminology in use at the time with early/pre-production pressurized radiator DB 601s. (this was before the DB-601E entered production, or contemporary Jumo 211F -the 601A and 211A/B/C/D all using open-circuit cooling systems)
This also implies that the He 100 may not have been practical to adopt the DB-601A and possibly 601N (I'm not sure if that transitioned to pressurized cooling) without a significant redesign to the cooling system and higher capacity radiator and header tank than even the D-1 had adopted. The same would apply to the Jumo 211 short of the F model. (which would have still required some modifications to the mounts and cowling to accommodate). It would be the 601E with its pressurized cooling system or the earlier 601M (the version used on all He 100s actually flown) that would be needed.
Take the Mustang off that list, it was about as overbuilt and correspondingly heavy for its size as the P-40 and P-39 (and pretty much all American fighters). It just had the advantage of exceptionally low drag for its weight and size.
Also remember that the 190A-8 and D were both much heavier than the earlier A models. Between the heavy engine, armor, and armament (and ammunition), the A-8 would be more akin to weighing the P-51D down with enough armor to protect it's large radiator area and carry a full complement of 4 Hispano cannons, maybe even adding the cowl mounted .50s.
SpicyJuan11
Senior Airman
Yes, I compared the A-8 version, but the A-1 had a wing loading of 206kg/m still higher than that of the He-100.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
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- Jun 27, 2007
The Fw 190 was built because of the radial engine. It would have shared the same fate as the He100 if it took engines away from the Messerschmitt.
Even a poor performing He 100 dragged down with armour and cannon would still have been one of the fastest machines of its day and superior to the P-40 and 109E. The question...is whether in a 1944 timeframe would a 109 be better than a 100? A silly question to ask in 1940 but I suppose that is what its about.
Even a poor performing He 100 dragged down with armour and cannon would still have been one of the fastest machines of its day and superior to the P-40 and 109E. The question...is whether in a 1944 timeframe would a 109 be better than a 100? A silly question to ask in 1940 but I suppose that is what its about.
Shortround6
Lieutenant General
I am not worried about the cannon's weight, I would be worried about it actually working in 1939 and 1940. If it doesn't (and the 109s engine cannon didn't work in those years) you are down to the two machineguns or if we are feeling charitable, four MG 17s in the wing roots.
I would also be worried about the effect of self-sealing tanks. I have the book in question and it doesn't say one way or the other. However most if not all of the He 100s were completed in 1939 with the last ones finished in very early 1940.
Records are not good. Officially there were NO 100Ds. There were 5 pre series aircraft V1-4 and V8. There were 3 A-O aircraft or block I aircraft, V5, V6 and V7. The block II aircraft comprised the V9/A-04, the V-10/A-05 and the A-06 - A-014 but not all may have been completed. The Block III aircraft were to be designated A-015 - A-025. Exact cut off of production is not given. either 24 or 25 airframes total were built. 6 went to Russia, 3 went to Japan one or two were tested to destruction in ground rigs, one crashed in Sept 1938 (V3) and the V8 went to the Deutsches Museum.
According to the book there were no company records of B, C, or D versions or at least no surviving records.
Detail design work on the 4 gun wing was halted very early during project (or at least by the time the first few planes had flown.
I would also be worried about the effect of self-sealing tanks. I have the book in question and it doesn't say one way or the other. However most if not all of the He 100s were completed in 1939 with the last ones finished in very early 1940.
Records are not good. Officially there were NO 100Ds. There were 5 pre series aircraft V1-4 and V8. There were 3 A-O aircraft or block I aircraft, V5, V6 and V7. The block II aircraft comprised the V9/A-04, the V-10/A-05 and the A-06 - A-014 but not all may have been completed. The Block III aircraft were to be designated A-015 - A-025. Exact cut off of production is not given. either 24 or 25 airframes total were built. 6 went to Russia, 3 went to Japan one or two were tested to destruction in ground rigs, one crashed in Sept 1938 (V3) and the V8 went to the Deutsches Museum.
According to the book there were no company records of B, C, or D versions or at least no surviving records.
Detail design work on the 4 gun wing was halted very early during project (or at least by the time the first few planes had flown.
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
The He 113 had excellent performance
Now there was a fighter.
Now there was a fighter.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
However, they were reportedly encountered and shot down even as late as 1943!
SpicyJuan11
Senior Airman
That's just arguing over semantics. Sure one can argue that there were no A,B,C,D's but really they are all equated to the prototypes anyways. Thanks for mentioning the self-sealing fuel tanks, I guess that detail was lost with the documents, but I also bought the Schiffer book as well and I'll see if it mentions it anywhere.
Not sure if you're being facetious since the He 100 was originally supposed to be designated as the He 113 but was changed to He 100 because of the chance of "bad luck". Then when the He 100 was used for propaganda purposes where it was designated He 113 and 3 were reported downed during the BoB by British pilots
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Edgar Brooks
Senior Airman
If I might be permitted to make a slight correction, Neil said they got a "genuine" 325 mph, which doesn't have quite the same ring about it as "only," in fact one could be forgiven for thinking that he was actually quite pleased with it, especially as he later says, " In terms of performance, the Mk.XII could outdistance a FW190 - as it was obliged to do when operating in the reconnaissance role - and also the Typhoon. As regards in-fighting, there were few opportunities to test our Mk.XII's capabilities, although we were always confident we could outperform anything the opposition could put up, most encounters resolving themselves into high-speed chases or escapes,"
The cooling system in the all built versions of the He-100 used evaporative, ie condensing steam in the wings, for cooling. The tiny retractable radiator was added between the wing header tank circuit, and offered negligible cooling when retracted.
We know that the last production block (D-1) used this system as photos of the engine bay exist that show several features related to the steam cooling system.
As for the deeper radiator on the D-1: I believe that you are getting confused with the proposed production/export model for Japan, which did do away with the complex cooling system and replaced it with a deeper radiator. A quick comparison of photos of the Soviet 100d with the d-1s will show their radiators to be the same.
Furthermore, at least one He-100 was flown with He-177 style radiators. Although this may have been as part of aerodynamic testing for that program.
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Macchi MC.200 Saetta root NACA 23018 mod tip NACA 23009 mod
Macchi MC.201 NACA 23018 mod NACA 23009 mod
Macchi MC.202 Folgore NACA 23018 mod NACA 23009 mod
Macchi MC.205 Veltro NACA 23018 mod NACA 23009 mod
Fiat G.50 Freccia NACA ??15 NACA ??10
Fiat G.55 NACA 2415 NACA 2409
Fiat G.59 NACA 2415 NACA 2409
Of course you won't count on the fact that we Italians can use a profile without eavily modify it, I hope.... but the most important feature to improve the stability that first monoplanes were lacking was adding the wash-out, that came out from some German papers arised in the second half of the thirties.
I wasn't able to find the exact profile of Reggiane fighters: the factory was heavily bombed, and almost all the drawings were destroyed: almost of the knowledge about Re 2005, of wich the only original existing piece is a section of the fuselage, is from the memories of C.te De Prato, his test Pilot.
That was the G.55S (S = silurante, or, very roughly, a 'torpedo fighter'). What was the cost in drag with two separated radiators, ease of modification? FWIW I like the idea
To keep a long story short, Nazis wanted to stop the production of Fiat G55 and to transport the skilled manpower from Turin to Germany. Of course something had to be invented to avoid this so Fiat management and C.te Adriano Mantelli, one of the most skilled Pilots of ANR, did invent a thing that no german fighter of those times could do, carry a quite normal aeriel torpedo under the belly. A prototype was hurriedly produced and C.te Mantelly exibit himself in a complete aerobatics programme with the torpedo underneath, to convince the German Commission that G55 had a future....
We don't have to go far to find some nice photos:
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/ai...hters-training-liaison-aircrafts-33172-2.html
The connections for tanks or bombs can be clearly seen:
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SpicyJuan11
Senior Airman
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if you or the author got something wrong as I have found nothing to support that the Japanese bought D-1's (the version without surface cooling prevalent in all previous versions).
Also, take a look at this:
Heinkel He 100 D-0
Heinkel He 113 (otherwise known as He 100 D-1)
The D-1's radiator looks clearly bigger to me.
Found this as well. I'm quite sure that this is the Japanese He 100 D-0 renamed AXHei
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPzw3LNPgpU
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You misunderstood.
There was a variant of the He-100 with an enlarged radiator in a deepened fuselage intended for license production in Japan.
I meant that this might be where he is getting the idea that the "D-1" had no surface cooling. In reality the later production block aircraft possessed tweaked versions of the cooling system from the v series.
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The 3 sold to Japan were the D-0, designated as the AXHei by the IJN/IJA and a factory was being constructed at Chiba to produce them. They were not intended as export, and had to receive permission from the RLM before sales to any country was considered.
Seven of the prototypes were sold to Russia:
V1, V2, V4, V5, V6 and V7
SpicyJuan11
Senior Airman
What are you implying GrauGeist? That the D had a larger radiator?
