Me 262 vs. early postwar jets

Would I be right to suggest a well sorted Me 262 could stand up to the early postwar jets, like the Supermarine Attacker, DeHavilland Vampire, Gloster Meteor F.4, Lockheed P-80, MiG-9 and (albeit a 1947 entrant) Yakovlev Yak-15?

At what point was the Me 262 rendered obsolete?

Admiral Beez said:

At what point was the Me 262 rendered obsolete?

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When it's opponents get engines that last more than 10-20 hours of operation.

Only 1/2 joking. Some of the Allied engines didn't last much longer than the engines in the 262 until 1947 or so. Some a bit quicker, some later.

An interesting contest would be against the Su-9 Sukhoi Su-9 (1946) - Wikipedia. My betting is on the Me 262. The 262 would also have a speed advantage against the Yak-15. More difficult to call would be against the Mig-9. Does anyone know much about the Mig-9's handling?

Top of my list is a pre-production Supermarine Attacker.

Admiral Beez said:

Would I be right to suggest a well sorted Me 262 could stand up to the early postwar jets, like the Supermarine Attacker, DeHavilland Vampire, Gloster Meteor F.4, Lockheed P-80, MiG-9 and (albeit a 1947 entrant) Yakovlev Yak-15?

At what point was the Me 262 rendered obsolete?

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Note the Luftwaffe (Siegfried Kneymeyer) and Messerschmitt understood the Me 262 would soon be out of date with the eventual appearance of allied Jet fighters. To this end the "Lightweight Emergency Fighter " competition was started using swept wings and the HeS 011 engine to maintain superiority.. This should not be confused with the People Fighter (He 162). This consisted of the Fucke Wulf Ta 183, Blohm and Voss BV 212, Messerschmitt Me P.1011 and Messerschmitt Me P.1112. Ta 183 was meant to by flying in June 1945, BV.212 received a prototype contract, P.1011 was going to be flying as a test bed and P.1112 was also being developed as an advanced aircraft.

This is also a question as to what we allow the Me 262 to be modified too in the 12 months. I'm going to stick to minor modifications that were inevitable but review the major ones.

Around June 1945 modified Meteor III with the Derwent V engine known as Speed Meteors ran speed records at sea level of around 600mph (Mach 0.8). The Derwent V was not a development of the earlier Derwent's but a scaled down Nene. The modifications to the "Speed Meteor" were faired over gun ports, clipped wings and special preparation.

Its clear that the Meteor F.4 was vastly superior to the Me 262A but the Meteor III of 1945 was still much slower than the Me 262 and had a much slower roll rate due to G restrictions and some Mach tuck and limit issues. Meteor F4 entered service with the RAF about 1948 but it could have been much earlier as they were sold to Argentina for profit and the Derwent V was clearly at the airworthy prototype stage in mid 1945 but I cant see a Meteor F4 like aircraft entering service till about Jan 1946.

The modification proposals for the Me 262 were as follows: Wing sweeps of 30, 37 and 45 degrees. These are very radical modifications that clearly would blow past the Mach 0.85 limit of the basic Me 262A aircraft and take it to Mach 0.95 and likely supersonic for the 45 degree sweep.

A minor structural modification would have been area ruling humps on the upper surface of the wings inboard of the engines to lower drag and raise Mach limit.

Messerschmitt had proposals for integrating the HeS 011 engine on the standard wing as well as the swept wings. The HeS 011 was meant to enter service with a thrust of 1300kg in 1945 and was supposed to grow to 1500kg thrust and thence 1700kg. This is much more than the existing Jumo 004B of 880kg. The HeS 011 was benching at 1153kg thrust in January 1945 but was having some trouble with turbine and compressor matching. I think it could be ready within 12 months and some flightworthy prototypes delivered by the end of the year, perhaps with thrust restrictions. The engine was somewhat larger diameter but no heavier and had lower fuel consumption.

First of all let me deal with the engine reliability issue. The Jumo 004B was released to service with a 25 hour Mean Time Between Overhaul after which the engines were to be refurbished up to 4 times. The engines fell short of this but there is good evidence they were becoming reliable. We know that some pilots were able to nurse engines to 60 hours, that the Arado 234 shipped from the well equipped Rechlin Flight Test centre that photographed the Normandy landings performed flawlessly. We know that a device called the "Beschleungigungs Ventile" or accelerator control valves was fitted in the final week of the war and that this likely made the 25 hours MTBO and reliable flight realistic.

Me 262A performance was 520mph as sea level and 540mph at 25,000ft. The aircraft could fly without difficulty to Mach 0.8 but could be taken to Mach 0.85. The fastest an me 262 was ever flown in level flight was Mach 0.86, 568 mph at 25,000ft. Some pilots reported 560mph at 20,000ft in examples with good engines and airframe (well aligned, smooth)

1 Modification 1. Jumo 004B replaced with Jumo 004C which takes thrust from 880kP to 950kP. This 8% increase in thrust should produce 4% increase in speed
542mph at sea level and 563 at 25,000ft. The Me 262 is now at mach limit about 25,000ft.
2 Modification 2. Jumo 004B replaced with Jumo 004D which takes thrust from 880kP to 1050kP. This 18.5% increase in thrust should lead to a 9% increase in speed.
568mph at seal level and Mach limited to 568mph at 25,000ft and less above.
These engines had improved compressors and should have improved surge margins and higher service ceilings. The Heinkel HeS 011 was getting duplex nozzles which had a second atomiser for flight at idling speeds or at low air flow rates at high altitude so that there was less change of a flame out.

3 Modification 3. The Me 262 had a very good roll rate, much better than the Meteor III but inferior to the P.80 which had hydraulic boost taken from the P38. The Me 262 had been built with provision for spring tab servos but these had not been implemented. I would expect these to be implemented by mid 1945 and the roll rate to go up.

4 Modification 4. Mach limit. The Mach limit needs to be raised without major changes. There are the 'area ruling bulges' which might do this. In order to increase safety air brakes such as those from the Me 410 or similar to the split flap radiator outlets on the Me 109 could be added. The electric tail plane trim needs to be linked to a Mach Meter to add nose up trim from about Mach 0.78 to Mach 0.88 and automatically trim back again. The all trimming tailplane jack screw may not have been powerful enough and could seize in a severe dive but the Mach trim would prevent this.

Beyond that there is the fitting of the HeS 011 which would give the Me 262 a 600mph speed at sea level, excellent climb but do nothing to raise Mach limit above 25,000ft

The swept wing Me 262 look quite viable. A 30-37 degree sweep, with HeS 011 engines at the wing roots (original 19040 design position) should be reasonably low risk and allow the Mach limit to be taken to Mach 0.95. The 45 degree sweep should allow the sound barrier to be broken but gets into problems with having to modify the tail due to shock wave impingement.

So the Me 262 might be able to be usefull all the way to 1948 if things work out with the swept wings, able to compete with the Meteor F4 and Lockheed F80C shooting star.

The Luftwaffe clearly wanted the Ta 183 but I can see a problem of too weak engines developing in Germany that couldn't compete with the 5000lb thurst engines the allies had and this might force the Luftwaffe to keep modifying the Me 262.

Admiral Beez said:

Would I be right to suggest a well sorted Me 262 could stand up to the early postwar jets, like the Supermarine Attacker, DeHavilland Vampire, Gloster Meteor F.4, Lockheed P-80, MiG-9 and (albeit a 1947 entrant) Yakovlev Yak-15?

At what point was the Me 262 rendered obsolete?

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A far more interesting comparison would be to set it against the Spanish CA-200 'Saeta', designed by (guess who?) none other than Willi Messerschmitt.

These kind of discussion are always interesting to me with both sides throwing stats back and forth. I know I will be derided but to me there is another more definitive way.

Find a good flight sim with a realistic flight model and setup a scenario against the AI or one of your friends. IL-2 Great Battles has a 262 but no Meteor yet. IL2-1946 has just about every thing with wings on it from 1910 - 2020. If you modify it with B.A.T. you have hundreds if not over a thousand different model planes to choose from.

You want to see who is fastest in a slow dive or climbing for the stars set it up and run it. Admittedly dog fighting against the AI is not very realistic, but against your buddy that should be a different story. I've setup a couple of scenarios in IL-2 1946 just to see what would happen AI vs AI and if you use the contemporary models of the 262 vs the Meteor or the P-80, the 262 cleans both of their clocks. With 4 on 4 dogfights, the 262 have a success rate of 3 to 1.

As most of the affectionatos of this forum know, turning fights, both sides going vertical and trying to out duel each other, was quit rare in WWII. Boom and Zoom, hit fast and move on. I once read that Hartman never attacked when he didn't have the element of surprise and never got into a dog fight.

See–Decide–Attack–Reverse"; observe the enemy, decide how to proceed with the attack, make the attack, and then disengage to re-evaluate the situation.[17][18] Hartmann's instinct was to select an easy target or withdraw and seek a more favorable situation.[18] Once the attack was over, the rule was to vacate the area; survival was paramount.

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Anyway, my three cents worth.

Koopernic said:

The HeS 011 was benching at 1153kg thrust in January 1945[/I]

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In December 1944 on test the 011 achieved 1333kp (2940lb) which triggered the release of production drawings, the first mass-produced engine being scheduled for May 1945.

Hairog said:

These kind of discussion are always interesting to me with both sides throwing stats back and forth. I know I will be derided but to me there is another more definitive way.

Find a good flight sim with a realistic flight model and setup a scenario against the AI or one of your friends.

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And include the toxic cockpit fumes, the extreme heat or cold, sitting on a lumpy seat while restrained with belts that almost cut through your soaking wet flight suit and have a 300 pound woman sit on you everytime you pull Gs - oh while breathing smelly oxygen through a face mask that smells like a prophylactic.

Yea, there's few on here that don't take toy flight sims too seriously...

cherry blossom said:

Does anyone know much about the Mig-9's handling?

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The report on state trials of the I-300 (later MiG-9), started in October 1946, said "Its handling characteristics have made this aircraft, on the whole, easy and pleasant to fly. Its controls are not binding and it is not hard to get accustomed to this machine." Over 200 aerobatics were performed - including the first spin ever attempted by a jet aircraft - without a single [BMW 003] engine failure. Mass production was launched immediately.

FLYBOYJ said:

And include the toxic cockpit fumes, the extreme heat or cold, sitting on a lumpy seat while restrained on belts that almost cut through your soaking wet flight suit and having a 300 pound woman sit on you everytime you pull Gs - oh while breathing smelly oxygen through a face mask that smells like a prophylactic.

Yea, there's few on here that don't take toy flight sims too seriously...

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Brilliant!

Messerschmitt was working on the Me262's next generation (Hochgeschwindigkeit version) even before the Me262 went into combat. A few Me262 Airframes were used to test upgrades and one was converted to an HG II with the ultimate goal of the HG III going into production but with most things Luftwaffe, they ran out of time.

GrauGeist said:

Messerschmitt was working on the Me262's next generation (Hochgeschwindigkeit version) even before the Me262 went into combat. A few Me262 Airframes were used to test upgrades and one was converted to an HG II with the ultimate goal of the HG III going into production but with most things Luftwaffe, they ran out of time.

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It does look faster.

Translation anyone?

FLYBOYJ said:

And include the toxic cockpit fumes, the extreme heat or cold, sitting on a lumpy seat while restrained on belts that almost cut through your soaking wet flight suit and having a 300 pound woman sit on you everytime you pull Gs - oh while breathing smelly oxygen through a face mask that smells like a prophylactic.

Yea, there's few on here that don't take toy flight sims too seriously...

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And with someone on your tail that has the best intention to kill you....

BiffF15 said:

Translation anyone?

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Please note that title of the 3rd pic might also contain 'installation of new engine' wording, besides that it is a newly engineered way of installing an engine.

Thos9 said:

In December 1944 on test the 011 achieved 1333kp (2940lb) which triggered the release of production drawings, the first mass-produced engine being scheduled for May 1945.

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On reviewing my Turbojet History and Development by Antony Kay I don't think any 011 engine reached the design to number of 2866 lbs thrust. Only four engines were tested for 184 hrs. Of this test 154 hrs were run a thrust less than 1764 lbs thrust and only 3 hour were run at a thrust greater than 2425 lb thrust. At the end of 1944 Heinkel-Hirth was forced to design a production engine but this had a major design to fix problems, including a "considerable" redesign of the combustion chamber, of the earlier engine and to make it producable. I could not find any evidence this modified engine was run.

In general, I think the Me 262 could be made competitive with post war competitors up into the generation 2 swept wing fighters. However, the German jet engine development had to be more successful. By wars end the Germans had many plans on engines but had never ran a jet engine more than 2800 lb. At this time the British had successfully tested the Nene at 5000 lbs thrust and the Americans were gearing up the production of J-33 of 4000 lbs thrust. Twin podded jet fighters did not last much into the swept wing era except in the Soviet Union. As a side note, the j-33, which was used in the T-33, was finally retired from USAF service in 1997, amazing.

BiffF15 said:

Translation anyone?

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"Zer airplanen ist farkinfastest..."

You're welcome