Me163 v P-47

[Chingachgook]

I posted this in the aviation section but it warrants repeating here in STORIES.

I should tell you (as best I can remember) something that a Sherman tank commander told me many years ago (sorry no real sources here other than his name - Joe Shlickman - he was head of NYC Transit when I knew him).

Joe said that they had entered Germany from Belgium early '45. I do not know where in Germany. He and his tanks were in a wide open area. Overhead they saw a tail-less "jet" that attacked four (4) P-47s at near ground level. The "jet" would loop down and shoot and then loop back up again after each attack, repeating four times and downing ALL FOUR P-47s.

This plane that Joe described is certainly a Me-163. I have Mano Ziegler's book "Rocket Fighter", but there is no mention of this engagement. My father had the Me163C throttle-able motor in his possession after the war (at USAF Burtonwood, England), does anyone know if that plane was ever flown in Combat? This engagement sounds like the pilot may have had throttle control. I will post pic of C two orifice motor in the Spring when I get it from my Father.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

To be honest I dont think what he saw was a Me-163. The Me-163 saw combat against bombers but the reason that I do not think that he saw it against the P-47s is because it did not have the range or time in the air to go searching for fighters.

The Germans shot the rocket plane up against bomber formations that they new were there. The Me-163 Komet only had a range of 43km and a duration of flight of about 8 to 10 minutes.

It simply did not have the time to go around and look for fighters. Plus after its rocket motor burned out it needed to be at alltitude to glide back down to land and it could not do so at low alltitudes.

 

[Soren]

Not saying it was a Me-163 but I can't think of any other tail-less LW fighter.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Neither can I...

 

[twoeagles]

Pictures of the motor will be very interesting, Ching...Marking my calendar to check back!!!

 

[Erich]

it doesn't make any sense really so probably a Me 262. The KG(J)'s 51 and 54 looked for anything low down especially any MT and troop concentrations to strafe and bomb with their 262A-2a's. A good friends dad witnessed a dual attack from 1 lone 262 : dropped it's bombs and came around to strafe the troops with it's 3cm's. ~ he noted laughingly we ran in all directions

 

[Soren]

If its was a Me-262 I think he would've noticed the two engines, I think, but perhaps it could've been a He-162, but the tail is rather noticable on this bird... The only thing that ruins the scenario of it being a Me-163 is the fact that he describe it climbing and attacking four times, the Me-163 didn't have enough fuel for this and a trip home - it was meant to hit the bombers once and then glide down.

Its a mystery really...

 

[Erich]

I think it is pure mis-identification that is all. when it is severely chaotic you do not pay well attention of details

 

[Hunter368]

Nice post total there Erich! LOL

I don't think it would of been a ME163 either. The plane was hard enough to fly and line up a slow moving bomber, it would of been nearly impossible to line up and shoot down 4 fast moving dodging sliding jinking P-47. Not to mention the time required to actually achieve these kills is more than the 163 had fuel.

IMO

 

[delcyros]

Joe said that they had entered Germany from Belgium early '45. I do not know where in Germany. He and his tanks were in a wide open area. Overhead they saw a tail-less "jet" that attacked four (4) P-47s at near ground level. The "jet" would loop down and shoot and then loop back up again after each attack, repeating four times and downing ALL FOUR P-47s.

i wouldn´t rule out the possibility that this has to do with -163 operating in january or february 45. The records are low and not consistent of I and II Gruppe of JG 400. A slovenian collegeu friend of mine certainly has more on this issue, I will have to ask him.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Yes that would be interesting.

I too think it was probably a 262 and just misidentified in the chaos of battle.

 

[Erich]

Rudi Opitz told me in 1945 they did nothing but move and try and hunt down fuel for the remainder of the rocket interceptors of II. gruppe as the Soviets were on their heels ........

 

[Soren]

Its more likely a Me-262 than a Me-163, but who knows...

 

[lesofprimus]

Exaclty Soren, who knows... No one really ever will so...

 

[Gnomey]

Exactly Soren. Is the any chance that it could of been an He-163 as that would sort of explain the tailless theory?

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

He-163 had a tail though...

I think it was just misidentification.

 

[Udet]

Fascinating story chinggie...

Even if we are before a case of misidentification of a plane it´d appear Chinggies guy is very confident about the scene he witnessed...more misteries that sadly might remained unsolved.

 

[Chingachgook]

I could never figure out what happened either. Joe died more than 15 years ago.
I did not really think that it could have been a Me163B because there is no way that it could have looped 4 times without thrust (well, I wouldn't think so anyway).
There is a story in Ziegler's book about a test pilot who buzzed Herman Goring when they display flew the Me163A at very low alt. I think they were able to re-light the motor after giving it a burst?
A Me163C may have been able to pull a flew loops because it had some throttle control, but I have never seen anything about the C in combat (?).
The He163 or Me262 is perhaps most likely but Joe was clear about the plane being tail-less. Horton maybe?
A few more shreads of his story have come back to me - I believe that he said something about the action being over very quickly and that he saw or counted the four smoke plumes from the crash sites. He also told me about seeing a P-51 get its' tail shot off by a Focke-Wulf and no chute from the P-51 before it crashed. I remember being upset about this because I was a P-51 fan.
I frequently asked him about tank to tank engagements, but he would never answer about this.

EDIT - It appears that two Me-163B were made operational with the addtional 300lbf thrust cruise motor. This gave extended powered flight time - up to 19 min.

 

[delcyros]

There is a story in Ziegler's book about a test pilot who buzzed Herman Goring when they display flew the Me163A at very low alt. I think they were able to re-light the motor after giving it a burst?
A Me163C may have been able to pull a flew loops because it had some throttle control, but I have never seen anything about the C in combat (?).

technically, it is not such a problem. The -163B had four thrust settings + idle, which gave amply of thrust controll. It was possible to relight the engine as long as 50 Kg of fuel were remaining in the tanks. There is no reason to doubt the -163 aerobatic abilities, which included loops.

 

[Soren]

People the Salamander is designated the He-162, not the He-163.

Wouldn't have mentioned it if it wasn't for the fact that it was incorrectly repeated 4 times, hehe