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The "hooked" P-40 never existed, and for good reason; it's high wing loading and high stall speeds made it unsuitable as a carrier based naval fighter.
I gave Sea Hurricane IB performance figures earlier in the thread, on post 33. However what isn't shown there is that the combat climb rating would have been close to 4000fpm up to 6000ft or so, while time to 20,000ft would have been in the 6 minute range.
Sorry, but you're the one claiming that boost override was inoperative at TO, when this is clearly not the case, and you'll have to prove that statement. Boost override is fully under the pilot's control and he could engage it when ever needed.
The speeds given are for the Zero! I provided the SAC data for low altitudes since at high altitudes the Zero is faster, even according to the SAC data. However the SAC data suggests that the F4F-4 should be faster than the Zero at lower altitudes when actual flight tests show that the Zero was faster:
The F4F-4 was test flown against the Zero. USA Flight testing gave the following speeds for the same Zero:
SL/270mph (F4F-4 SAC data = 285
5000ft/287 (F4F-4 SAC data = 290
10000ft/305 (F4F-4 SAC data = 305)
16000ft 326
20000ft 321.5
25000ft 315
30000ft 306
Bolded speeds are for the USA tests of the Zero that was flight tested against a F4F-4.
Sea Hurricane Merlin III engines were modified to allow +16 boost. This gave them performance similar to a regular Hurricane I using +12 boost.
The USN actually called for Merlin engined fighters for both shore and carrier operations:
I suspect that the USN might have welcomed the Sea Hurricane in 1942.
The FAA didn't resist single seat fighters and used them throughout the war. However, they needed a folding wing fighter that could fit into the narrow lifts on Ark Royal and the Illustrious class carriers and there were no such single seat fighters in service in the RN or USN until late 1941, however by mid 1941 the Sea Hurricane was being used on FAA carriers with larger lifts and in 1942 even on the Illustrious class via a temporary deck park.
The ideal use for the Sea Hurricane would have been as a point defence fighter in lieu of the Wildcats that were kept as CAP (rather than escorts) where it's high climb rate would have allowed it to gain the altitude advantage over incoming raids and provide top cover for the Wildcat, while the Sea Hurricane I would have given USN pilots speed parity with the zero under 10k ft along with better overall manoeuvrability. The Sea Hurricane II could carry twin 45IG drop tanks and could have served as an escort fighter but without folding wings it could not be carried in the same numbers as the F4F-4.
And this may NOT be a smooth landing;
View attachment 250728
He has caught the wire but looks a little high.
The USAAF had no problem with using Spitfires in 1942/43.
I'm pretty sure that if USN pilots were allowed to offer their opinion they would have gladly flown Cdn built Sea Hurricanes. It was the pilots who were the leading dissenters regarding the F4F - they wanted something better and said so on many occasions.
following text preceded by the extended quote from Black Shoe Admiral with negative commentary of USN aviation leadership:
Why wouldn't they like a faster, more manoeuvrable fighter that was already combat proven? The USN resisted liquid cooled engines, but as the statement from Nimitz makes clear by mid 1942 they were not happy with the F4F-4:
By Oct 1942 the USN was scraping the bottom of the barrel to feed F4F-4s into Guadalcanal. The Sea Hurricane II would have given them another fighter to supplement the F4F-4 and it would have been better suited to shore based ops than the F4F-4 with it's narrow LG. Having the Sea Hurricane in production would have reduced the USN's reliance on a single source for carrier fighters.
That was not the supposed reason (and we don't even know whether the USN really considered the P-40 as CV fighter), and that 'reason' never existed in 1st place. The wing loading was far smaller than of F4U and F6F.
Peak climb rate will be about twice as high as the F4F-4 and about the same as the Spitfire V (similar weight and lower wing loading than the Spitfire VC).So the Sea Hurricane with ~1400 HP should climb as twice as F4F-4, let alone F4F-3. It should be also better than Spitfire V on same +16 lbs. Perhaps the 3500 fpm is a more reasonable thing to expect?
I never said that boost override was inoperative for TO conditions. I've said that boost override was allowed for an aircraft flying already at fast speed. If the Merlin 45 was indeed allowed for +16 lbs for take off in 1942, then what was the point to insist on two-speed engines for Mosquito, Lancaster, Hurricane and other bombers? Install the Merlin 45 on them and you've saved plenty of time and money. Seems the engineers don't agree with you.
Please note here that there is a distinction made for climb, cruise and combat conditions for Merlin 20 series of engines. And here is the power chart for different Merlin 20s, where again the disitnction was made for take off conditions and all-out conditions.
Grumman revised their data downwards from their initial estimates.If you compare the SAC data with Grumman data, you will see that Grumman data is more realistic, for example they list the F4F-4 making 283 mph at 4600 ft.
Indeed, they were making 1440 HP at 5500 ft (no ram) as 'combat power'. The take off power remained the same, 880 HP. It took the RR to develop the Merlin XII in order for single speed Merlin to use boost of +12 lbs on take off.
The only way I could see a number of Sea Hurricanes available to any VF unit is if a number of the aircraft "just happened" to be located in San Diego or Norfolk as a carrier group was returning to port. Considering that the first arrestor hook Sea Hurricane came to be during the late summer of 1941, I don't see this happening UNLESS someone in the USN saw the Sea Hurricane as a great advantage over the F4F and began the production ball rolling prior to WW2. The "supplementation" would have been welcomed IMO, to view this as a "should have done" after Pearl Harbor, was not practical or worth the effort when the F6F was on the way.
I know - you were talking setting up HSH production in North America. There was no way you were going to set up production, build additional tooling, build the aircraft, get it carrier qualified and off to say Guadalcanal if a contract was signed say January 1942, and again, would it be worth it after all that was shown about the F4F?The FAA and Hawker began engineering the Sea Hurricane in June/july 1940. First arrested landings were in early 1941, first delivery to an operational squadron was probably March 15 of a Sea Hurricane IB converted in the UK, from a CCF Hurricane I. First HSH 1B kill was 31 July 1941 by 880 squadron operating from HMS Furious.
From Rich L., a great wealth of knowlege with regards to US Naval Aviation.
I know - you were talking setting up HSH production in North America. There was no way you were going to set up production, build additional tooling, build the aircraft, get it carrier qualified and off to say Guadalcanal if a contract was signed say January 1942, and again, would it be worth it after all that was shown about the F4F?
By the RAN, not by the USN. It would have had to go thru carrier quals regardless.The Sea Hurricane was already carrier qualified in early 1941.
Production ~Jan-Feb 1942, and when do you think the first ones will be delivered? This is all wishful thinking, especially when diverting already allocated engines, again for what value added? This is all assuming a contract was signed in early 1941, again not very likely.I'm suggesting that after Packard got the Merlin contract, that the USN could have signed a deal with CCF to build the HSH II (say early-mid 1941), with production commencing ASAP ( ~jan-feb 1942) once the Packard Merlin is available. This would have meant fewer P-40Fs (but more P40Es) as the CCF HSH would have had a higher priority for Packard Merlins.
The wing loading was about the same as the F4U/F6F but the airframe and LG were not designed for arrested landings and if the airframe is modded to take the extra stress the wing loading will get higher yet. The Hurricane's low wing loading and stall speed meant that the airframe/LG could withstand arrested landings without difficulty.
Peak climb rate will be about twice as high as the F4F-4 and about the same as the Spitfire V (similar weight and lower wing loading than the Spitfire VC).
We got into this phase of our discussion while talking about whether an overloaded Spitfire V pilot could use the boost cut out on take off, for a one time event and I never suggested that this would be standard practice for high intensity ops in land based aircraft! The Merlin 20 clearly gives more TO/high altitude power, at the same boost, as the Merlin 45 which were critical factors for heavily loaded bombers but much less so for a medium altitude fighter.
Grumman revised their data downwards from their initial estimates.
The Spitfire/Hurricane with the Merlin II/III was being used operationally with 100 octane fuel to increase TO performance in 1938:
http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/100-octane/24sept38-spitfire-100oct-approval.jpg
This implies an increase in boost since at 6.25lb boost TO power remains the same even with 100 octane fuel.
Based on Lundstrom's accounts which use IJN and USN data, the Wildcat achieved about a 1-1 kill ratio with the Zero, in 1942.
The landing gear of the early P-40s was designed with some healthy redundancy - it weighted 628 lbs in the P-40 (no letter) vs. 351 lbs for the F4F-4. 740-750 lbs was for the Hellcat, that was 50% heavier for same missions. The weight of landing gear went to 649 kbs with P-40B/C, and then 694 ( a typo in the AHT?) P-40E, then lightened to 552 lbs for the heavier (!) P-40F and stood at about that weight until the magnesium wheels were introduced with P-40N, weighting 488 lbs there. The P-40E (1150 HP for take off) was tested with two 225 US gal tanks ( take off weight close to 11000 lbs), for ferry purposes - looks like landing gear, engine and wing were up to the task.
The P-40 was carrying between 112 and 133 imp gals in protected tanks (150 in non-protected tanks), vs. 94 imp gals for the Hurricane. That leaves option of removing one tank, like it was the case for few P-40 versions, for greater RoC and lower wing loading, or retaining it for a range a bit better than F4F, let alone for Hurricane.
The difference in drag at climbing speeds is minimal and offset by the lower wing loading.No doubt that the climb rate would be better than F4F. I, however, doubt it that RoC should be better than of Spitfire Vs. The bigger drag should be also a concern?
Seems like this statement got us side-tracked: "The Merlin boost override can be engaged at any altitude to be used as the pilot saw fit. " (your post #60 here).
Would you be so kind to direct me to the Grumman's data other than what can be found at Williams' site?
and note the performance for the overload fighter at 7432lb.Grumman Aircraft Engineering Corporation
Report No. 1469A
August 12, 1941
Detail Specification
For
Model F4F-3 Airplane
and note the performance at 7426lb and then note the discrepancy between the F4F-4 and F4F-3 at near identical weights! The time to climb to 20K ft has gone from 8.4min in the F4F-3 to 12.7min in the F4F-4 yet the weights are the same! Grumman "sexed up" the performance stats for the F4F-3/4 and then had to back away from them as it was obvious that actual service aircraft, in combat, could not hope to match Grumman's claims, and USN/USMC pilots said so in no uncertain terms.Grumman Aircraft Engineering Corporation
Report No. 1471C
October 21, 1942
Detail Specification
For
Model F4F-4 Airplane
Thanks for posting that.
In case the +12 lbs boost was allowed also for take off regime, the power should be greater, 1180-1190 HP judging by the power chart for Merlin III. It is puzzling why the later document, that covers even the mid-war Merlins, notes only +6.25 lbs boost (880 HP for take off)?
And the Sea hurricane "would have" done any better? Based on what happened in Burma there's a lot of wishful thinking going on here!
Based on Lundstrom's accounts which use IJN and USN data, the Wildcat achieved about a 1-1 kill ratio with the Zero, in 1942.
And it "SHOULD" have done better in Burma, don't ya think?The Sea Hurricane II was faster and could out roll, out turn, and out climb the F4F-4. Given the same tactical situations it should do better than the F4F-4.
The Sea Hurricane II was faster and could out roll, out turn, and out climb the F4F-4.
In any event, I think your case suffers when you make comparisons to the F4F performance. I believe it's strongest when you argue that the HSH was a fine aircraft that could make a worthwhile contribution, if it had been available in numbers in that critical time frame, flying primarily from land bases but with the flexibility for staging from A/C carriers at need.
JMHO.
I
In any event, I think your case suffers when you make comparisons to the F4F performance. I believe it's strongest when you argue that the HSH was a fine aircraft that could make a worthwhile contribution, if it had been available in numbers in that critical time frame, flying primarily from land bases but with the flexibility for staging from A/C carriers at need.
JMHO.