Messerschmitt Bf 110 vs P-38 Lightning

[Vincenzo]

The P-38 actually entered service in 1941 so, more or less, it was a contemporary of the Me 110; the advantage the P-38 had was, a.) turbo-supercharged engines, b.) lower inertial mass, which contributed to a better roll rate, c.) contra-rotating engines which allowed the P-38 to roll equally well in either direction (left or right), and d.) single-pilot operation, which required less in the way of support hardware vs. the 110 and, therefore, lower overall weight. The P-38 is generally overlooked vs. more the "glamorous" fighters like the P-47 and the P-51, but it was the first production fighter in the world to exceed 400 mph in horizontal flight, and the first operational fighter with a 1,000 mile range; it was also the only US fighter to remain in constant production from 1941 to 1945.

1st i write fightning. 2nd so the P-38 it's contemporary of Me 262.

 

[Waynos]

When did P-47 and P-51 production end?

 

[davebender]

Let's make sure we are comparing aircraft from the same time period.
P-38 Lightning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The definitive P-38J was introduced in August 1943

So what version of the Me-110 was flying during the fall of 1943?

My money says that a P-38J day fighter foolish enough to be flying at night over Germany gets eaten for lunch by a Me-110G4 night fighter.

 

[Vincenzo]

afaik the G-2 was the last zerstorer, the G-3 was a recce and G-4 a night fighter

p.s. for fall '43 there are also the Me 410

 

[Colin1]

...the G-2 was the last zerstorer...

Largely why I picked it and faced it off against the one of the last of the P-38s, the L.
The G-2 did share performance similarities with the G-4

 

[drgondog]

When did P-47 and P-51 production end?

summer 45 for the p-47 (VJ Day) and fall 45 for 51H and P-82 was last ordered in Oct 1945

 

[Vincenzo]

Largely why I picked it and faced it off against the one of the last of the P-38s, the L.
The G-2 did share performance similarities with the G-6

G-6 ???

 

[Colin1]

G-6 ???

Well spotted
I did in fact mean the G-4

 

[Vincenzo]

imho G-4 it's not a good proxy for G-2. it's more heavy, more drag.

 

[Colin1]

imho G-4 it's not a good proxy for G-2. it's more heavy, more drag.

Not all of it comes from the G-4, but anything I could base on the powerplant commonality, I did

 

[Maximowitz]

I'm rather tempted to bring John Vasco over here to take a look at this thread...

 

[Soren]

In the hands of a capable pilot who knew how to get the best out of his machine, the most widely produced variants of the P-38 (J&L models) were vastly superior to the Bf 110. The 110 could not out-turn a P-38, nor could it match it in any aspect of combat performance.

Do you have anything to support that claim ? I think not.

Bf-110G-2
Weight: 7,500 kg
Wing area: 38.4 m^2
Power: 2,910 hp
Wing loading: 195.3 kg/m^2
Power loading: 2.57 kg/hp

P-38J
Weight: 7,940 kg
Wing area: 30.43 m^2
Power: 3,450 hp
Wing loading: 260.9 kg/m^2
Power loading: 2.3 kg/hp

 

[Daviducus2]

I don't profess to be able to evaluate turn radius of these aircraft but I do recall some very knowledgable folks on this forum like FlyboyJ believing that a very capable pilot in a P-38 (not sue if it was J or L) could out turn a Zero.

Butters post makes an interesting point in how the P-38 and Bf-110 would have fared if switched in BoB and in Pacific Theatre.

 

[Soren]

Outturn a Zero now ? Hmm.. no.

 

[Stitch]

"... more the "glamorous" fighters like the P-47..."

I don't think I have ever heard P-47 and "glamorous" in the same sentence. The P-38 was much more sexy looking and glamorous IMHO and I assume that was the general consensus at the time too.

You're right, perhaps glamorous wasn't the correct word; I agree with you that the P-38 was perhaps THE sexiest a/c of WWII, with the tapered booms and streamlined cowls.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Outturn a Zero now ? Hmm.. no.

HMM...YES!!!! Bong, McGuire, MacDonald, Gerald Johnson, and I could name several other highly skilled P-38 drivers WHO CAN AND DID out turn a zero by using differential power settings based on the direction of the turn. Read the book "Peter Three Eight" and "Twelve to One" and some of the history of the 49th and 80th fighter group and these accounts are well documented.

WITH THAT SAID -

Many of the guys who were able to do this discouraged any turn fight with the Zero. Here is excerpt from a booklet put out during WW2

http://webpages.charter.net/jimdoss/12to1/index.htm

Tommy McGuire perished attempting to turn with a Oscar and almost pulled it off had he punched off his drop tanks.

This was very do-able and there were a small handful of pilots who flew in the Southwest Pacific that had the skill and tenacity to do this.

Here's another account

http://www.kilroywashere.org/003-Pages/Tilley-John/03-Harm-Tilley-story.html

 

[Soren]

I believe the accounts happened all right FLYBOYJ, and I know that the pilots spoke out honestly about what they knew, but lets remember one thing, we DON'T know what the Zero or Oscar pilots were doing, and most likely they were rookies. That's why such accounts aren't worth that much unless they can be backed up by aerodynamics. If we were to for example ignore the aerodynamics I can tell you that there are plenty accounts of Fw190's outturning Spitfires as-well, but I think we all know which a/c turned the tighest of those two.

That having been said, we've had these discussions before and I will say exactly the same as I said then, and that is; There is no way that a P-38 is EVER going to outturn a Zero if both pilots know their a/c 100%. Sorry but it just wont happen!

Think about it, if it were to be true then a Bf-110 would be able to turn even better, its' got the exact same ability to apply differential engine power as-well, yet Spitfires preyed on it quite effortlessly. What you're suggesting is that pilots such as Bong would be able to turn fight Spitfires in a Bf-110 ?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I believe the accounts happened all right FLYBOYJ, but lets remember one thing, we DON'T know what the Zero or Oscar pilots were doing, and most likely they were rookies.

You have a very valid point and I'll give the benefit of the doubt there. At the same time you "could have" had the cream of the crop sitting there wondering why this twin engine monster was chewing up their aircraft.

That having been said, we've had these discussions before and I will say exactly the same as I said then, and that is; There is no way that a P-38 is EVER going to outturn a Zero if both pilots know their a/c 100%. Sorry but it just wont happen!

But also remember this NO pilot will ever fly their aircraft to 100% efficiency, with that said, what was done with the P-38 in this situation was done outside tactical and design parameters established for the aircraft.

Think about it, if it were to be true then a Bf-110 would be able to turn even better, yet Spitfires preyed on it quite effortlessly.

Yes - and look into the multi engine training many 110 drivers received. From what I understand many of the pilots who flew the 110 had some time in bombers and flew the 110 like a bomber. Tactically the Bf 110 and P-38 were flown entirely different and I think history shows us the end results when comparing them in their respective theaters of operation (the SWP for the P-38 )

 

[DAVIDICUS]

FLYBOYJ and Soren, what do you think about a turn contest between a Bf-110 and P-38?

 

[Kurfürst]

I can't find anything putting the G-2 over 350mph or a climb rate any like as ambitious as 3,000ft/min
Where are you getting this from?

Top speed of the G-2 version was 595 kph at 6100 m (see Mankau). I guess the lower speeds quoted refer to nightfighters with extra equipment (gunpods, flame dampers, antenna).