Messerschmitt Me 264 and Heinkel He 277.

[Kurfürst]

Any long-range German bombers put into service in 1943 would have been used against the Russian industry, it would not have been wasted on mindless U.S attacks or suicidal daylight raids on Great Britain.

Remember now, the Bf 109 did not have the effective range to escort bombers any further north than London so British industry was safe from escorted bombers; those that went up without escort would be met by Spitfire IXs for an uncomfortable ride, which did carry cannon. In the event, Hurricane IIC and IV would be made ready for interception duties with four 20mm.

Just for the record, the variants Bf 109 from August 1940 onwards had plenty of reach to escort the Lutwaffe's bombers anywhere over Britiain's industrial centres.

The droptank-less Emils had a range of 660 km, and that was enough to escort the bombers up to London in practical terms; when the E-7 appeared in August, capable of carrying a droptank, it extended that to 1300 km, ie. well past London. The 109F and later had a range of 1600 km and over with a single droptank.

The F/G/K was actually they were capable of flying from Berlin to Eastern England and back, though that would be really pushing it and without any fighting or high consumption engine regimes, of course.

In a more realistic escort scenario, taking of from near Calais, Leeds or Manchester would within escort range for 109s and 190 by 1942, perhaps a bit further north, too.

 

[Juha]

Are You sure, Kurfürst?
Why didn't LW use that ability, for ex. once a while escorted daytime raid on Hull, fighters taking off from somewhere near Texel?
What is the longest bomber escort mission flown by 109Gs You are aware of?

TIA
Juha

 

[Kurfürst]

I am 100% sure since I own detailed range tables for various Bf 109 types. Simply what you have in published sources for ie. the range of Bf 109G is the range are for maximum cruise speeds (at circa 600kph!), without the use of a droptank. That's pretty similiar to the range of the Bf 109E, but that is comparing apples and oranges since published 109E figures are for econo cruise speeds w/o droptanks.

As for longest mission, I have no idea. I've never seen any book stating distances or for that matter detail daily German sorties in such depth. Did you?

As for the Western Front, there were very few German bombers stationed there after May 1941, KG 40 boys mainly, but they were busy with anti-shipping operations. Simply to put, no bombers to be escorted in the West. Not sure about Eastern operations.

 

[Juha]

Kurfürst
I know the Finnish actions, without droptank. I'm surprised that there are no info on LW escort missions, one gets easily some idea on USAAF or RAF escort missions and from those one can draw at least rough estimates on their escort capabilities. And ferry range is definetely different thing than combat range.

"Simply to put, no bombers to be escorted in the West"

Not so simple, for example KG 2 was in West, equipped with Do 217s which was after all designed as heavily armed day bomber. And there were other bomber units. So bombers were there. So question remains, why LW didn't utilise their fighters long range for escort missions, why they didn't try surprise day bombing attacks on fringe targets like Hull, which they considered important target for their night attacks?

Juha

 

[Kurfürst]

I am not sure about what period we talk about KG 2... as for the Do 217, it was also used as a nightfighter, and it was used a lot as a anti-shipping bomber because of it's capability to lfit heavy warloads.

As for daylight attacks, I presume the LW would not be so keen to basically restart the BoB, but only with a fraction of a fighter and bomber force. What, 100, maybe 200 bombers and 2-300 fighters in entire France at the time, maximum..?

Most bombers were on the East, where the LW and VVS was exchanging some very serious, though often neglected tonnage of bombs, but it's difficult to say anything based on those missions. My impression being that most of those were about hopping 100 km behind the front, bombing some supply depot or railway station, making but a fraction of use of the bombers range.. as the Urals would be in unreachable distances to any bomber at the time, Axis or Allied.

 

[Glider]

Its also fair to point out that the forces available for defending the UK were far stronger than in the BOB whilst the bombers (with the exception of the Do217) were very similar to those of the BOB being based on the He111 and the Ju88.
The Hurricane had was inferior to the 109E, had been replaced by the Spitfire which was a good match for the 109, plus of course the increased number of fighters available to the RAF resulted in a much stronger fighter defence.

 

[Juha]

Kurfürst
one Gruppe of KG 2 began operations with Do 217Es in July 41, later that year stab and another Gruppe arrived. After that to mid 1944 there were IIRC at least Stab and two Gruppen ready in action in West. Later KG 2 got Do 217Ks and Ms. And as KG specified it was a bomber unit and yes it also flew anti-shipping operations. But LW had in West available a new day bomber from July 41 onwards.

At least KG 55 flew now and then night attacks against Soviet munitions factories.

Kurfürst and Glider
I didn't mean a new BoB but random attacks on specific targets near coast or at coast from unexpected directions. British may well have got wind of those plans through Ultra but German planning staff didn't know that or even suspected that. If Bf 109Fs/Gs and FW 190As had the capability to escort bombers distances Kurfürst claimed that might have looked a good idea for LW planners to keep part of Spitfires away from South England and so away from attacking targets in Northern France. Even a couple of attacks say with a Gruppe of Do 217s and two-three Gruppen of fighters might well have been enough from that purpose.

 

[Glider]

Its an idea certainly and they may have got away with it once but not twice.

 

[Kurfürst]

I think the LW was rather busy supporting 3 million German troops instead of splitting it's forces to do harassing raids on the British. What would these raids achieve, anyway? The situation would be all the same. From the German POV, Britain was neutralized as a threat (=it could hope to land in France or bomb Germany in the daylight with success), at least for the time being.

And I don't make 'claims', the ranges of the Bf 109F/G/K and the FW 190A are clearly stated in their range tables. Those has been posted some time ago in this board. It might be interesting to calculate an 'escort' range, but it depends on the mission profile and engine regimes.

Perhaps such 'standards' are available for say, Mustangs, to get a comparable data...?

 

[Juha]

Quote: "I think the LW was rather busy supporting 3 million German troops instead of splitting it's forces to do harassing raids on the British. What would these raids achieve, anyway? "

Nobody was talking on splitting LW forces, KG 2 was in West all the time! Idea was what LW could do to split FC assests. And anyway KG 2 sent single Do 217s on daylight "cloud cover" harasing missions over England. I thing they were rather useless in military terms put probably flyed to keep British on their toes. Now a daylight attack on Gruppe strenght against for ex. Hull would probably rose a public outcry in GB and awoke demands to fighter protection to all areas under potential threat at scale capable to prevent accurate bombing. And of course it would have been excellent propaganda victory and a boost to German morale.

Juha

 

[Glider]

Quote: "I think the LW was rather busy supporting 3 million German troops instead of splitting it's forces to do harassing raids on the British. What would these raids achieve, anyway? "

Nobody was talking on splitting LW forces, KG 2 was in West all the time! Idea was what LW could do to split FC assests. And anyway KG 2 sent single Do 217s on daylight "cloud cover" harasing missions over England. I thing they were rather useless in military terms put probably flyed to keep British on their toes. Now a daylight attack on Gruppe strenght against for ex. Hull would probably rose a public outcry in GB and awoke demands to fighter protection to all areas under potential threat at scale capable to prevent accurate bombing. And of course it would have been excellent propaganda victory and a boost to German morale.

Juha

Its probably more likely to be a disaster with heavy losses and be a morale boost to the British public.

 

[Juha]

Maybe, if FC would have got a fore warning by SIGINT but that was something that LW planning staffs were not counting on. In 1942 LW knew as RAF that best way to surprise attack was low level approach and last minute climb to bombing altitude. I'm not sure how well FC was prepared to defer well escorted bigger bomber formation outside South England, at least they were used to fight against single nuisance bombers or small unescorted bomber formations on anti-shipping missions.
Surprise or sneak attack is what I'm thinking of and a one how a LW planning staff would have seen the possibilities not the real life situation with Ultra and so on. Hitler/LW was hoping for some sort propaganda stunt IMHO that was the main reason behind for ex. Ju 86 high altitude bombing raids, military significance of those flights with one 250kg bombload wasn't very big.

 

[Kurfürst]

Propaganda stunts could be done much safer, and cheaper by Jabo raids, in fact that's what they did. Anyway, we're sailing to rather off topic waters.

 

[Juha]

Yes, but sailing is fun. Anyway, You might not see it but I'm rather sure that Herr Hitler, whose thinking seemed to be rather revenge oriented, would have liked some more spectacular response than some small-scale fighter bomber attacks to for ex first USAAF heavy bomber attacks. And if successful its propaganda value would have been in different magnitude and it would have given Goebbels' machine extra boost for weeks.
But my main point is that neither I nor You can remember any use of the long range escort capacity of German single-engine fighters that you claim they had. Not even over Mediterranean or over Barents Sea where unescorted LW torpedobombers were time to time badly mauled by fighter escorts of convoys.

 

[Clay_Allison]

The P-38s and 40s were at their best at high altitude in any case and had very potent armament. At worst, had these planes failed to deliver the KO punch, it might have spurred the P-63 into production toting that 37mm cannon.

 

[Kiwikid]

Originally Posted by phouse View Post
As I understand it, the ME-264 was intended to be ditched in the ocean after bombing the US and their crews picked up by submarine. So to beat a dead horse, no escort plans were constructed.

I thought that was the story of the Ju 290. The Me 264 had a range of 11,000 km so should have been able to get back to France.

Referring back to an old post the plan to attack New York and then ditch in the sea involved the use of a Staffel of FW200 Kondors and crews parachuting at sea near some U-boats. I rather suspect the Kreigsmarine were not the least interested.

The Me-264 was designed to the same specifications as the Ju-390 for an aircraft to shadow convoys and call in He-177 aircraft with anti ship glide bombs. When you closely study the RLM literature you begin to realise that the Amerika bomber and the specifications for an ultra long range patrol aircraft were related, but probably different

The Me264 was rejected by RLM as a candidate for the Amerika bomber because it required a 2,400m runway at MTOW. It was intended to operate to USA from an airport near Le Havre.

The Ju-390V1 (RC+DA) had a bomb aimer's gondola and was most likely the longe range maritime patrol variant. The Ju-390V2 (GH+UK) which lacked dorsal turret,s or a ventral gondola thus it was the transport version.

The Ju-390V3 which never made it off the production hall at Dessau was intended to be the bomber version of the Ju-390. It was intended to carry three Kamikaze Me-328 parasite aircraft slung two under the outboard wings and one under the fuselage. The Ju-390 was too slow to survive over New York even against anti-aircraft fire, forgetting the problem of US fighters. That was why the Me-328 was considered.

Of real interest to me was an article from the New York Times which mentioned

RAF officers said today that the Germans had nearly completed preparations for bombing New York from a "colossal air field" near Oslo. "Forty giant bombers with a 7,000 mile range were found on this base - the largest Luftwaffe field I have ever seen," one officer said. "

They were a new type bomber developed by Heinkel. They were now being dismantled for study. German ground crews said the planes were held in readiness for a mission to New York.

Clearly the RAF officer quoted was wrong about their range, but recently on 2 April 2005 an He-177 pilot Peter Brill disclosed at a conference in Sabadell that he was selected for special training with other crews to perform a mission to New York in late 1943. The training comprised astro-navigation and night flying at an e-stelle which trained night fighter pilots.

I also suspect personally that the forty Heinkels spoken of were early model He-177 converted at Prague Rusnye to He-277B5 standard. The first He-277V1 was converted from an He 177A-3/R2 airframe with four DB 603A engines (used by the long nosed Focke-Wulf Ta 152) The He 277V1 flew at Vienna-Schwechat in the closing months of 1943. These aircraft had a 6,000km range.

The problem is that forty airframes exceeds the recorded production of He-277, however it would explain the disappearance of early He-177 airframes.

 

[Juha]

Hello Kiwikid
The problems are,
the number of He 177B-5s/He 277s produced seemed to be 4, prototypes He 177 V101-104 and
It seems that there was no He 177s/277s in Norway in May 45, see Luftwaffe in Norway, by clicking Tables 1 – 3 one can see number of LW planes in Norway in May 45.

Juha

 

[Kiwikid]

As I said...

The problem is that forty airframes exceeds the recorded production of He-277, however it would explain the disappearance of early He-177 airframes.

....however other sources talk of eight He-277 built. Stammkennzeichen records themselves are confusing since some He-177 construction numbers identify the same airframes as different versions indicating rebuilds of airframes. There were no records of He-277 in Czechoslovakia in April 1945 either, however at least one was destroyed at Cheb (Eger) on 11 April 1945 by 336th Fighter Group US 9th Air Force and three He-177A-5 were destroyed at Prague Rusnye. A number of He-177 not lost in action had to be evacuated somewhere.

http://www.fronta.cz/fotogalerie/cheb-letiste-kveten-1945

It becomes harder to dismiss the story out of hand now that an He-177 pilot has publicly stepped forward to confirm such a mission was planned.

 

[Juha]

Hello Kiwikid
The info of only 4 He 177B-5s/He 277s is from the newest edition of Griehl's Dressel's He 177, 277, 274. And they wrote that they had unlimited access to the archives of Heinkel (the firm) and that they had also used extensively other archives. But it's of course impossible to be 100% sure.

Quote: "A number of He-177 not lost in action had to be evacuated somewhere."

I don't know if they were in strict sense evacuated but Allied forces found He 177s in many places many were partly wrecked/dismantled and probably many were "reduced to produce". Also in Griehl's Dressel's book are photos on some of those wrecks incl. also at least 2 photos on a wreck at Prague Rusnye.

But it seems that not a one was found in Norway.

IIRC when He 177 units were disbanded, 40 He 177s were ordered to kept ready for possible further operational use.

Juha

 

[Kiwikid]

Juha,

I will not name him, but a person associated with Griehl and many authors writing works on advanced Luftwaffe projects told me last November that in order to gain access to controlled archives they have to consent to having their works vetted for German Foreign relations implications. The German government is still sensitive about the publishing of plans to attack USA and applies extraordinary pressure to Griehl and other authors not to publish everything. That means we are left with occasional uncontrolled utterances by veterans who suddenly make disclosures.

Peter Brill the He-177 pilot mentioned earlier, is reported saying the following in 2005 at the conference at Sabadell:

Der Zeitzeuge AK sah vier He-177 in Sprottau stehen, als er Ende 1943 zur Luftwaffe eingezogen wurde und zum Jagdflieger ausgebildet werden sollte. Die unter Tarnnetzen verborgenen Maschinen hätten über einen riesigen Bombenschacht verfügt, in dem ein Auto Platz gehabt hätte. Nach Amerika im Einwegflug sollte auch die moderne He-277 B-5/R2 fliegen. Bis zum 3. By 3 Juli 1944 konnten noch neun Exemplare des von vier DB603 oder Jumo 222 (spätere Nachrüstung) angetriebenen Höhenfernbombers hergestellt werden. Bei einer Dienstgipfelhöhe von 15000 m konnte die > He-277 B-5 < 2500 kg Bomben über 6000 km (ohne Zusatztanks) transportieren und im Bahnneigungsflug problemlos 700 km/h erreichen

He said the aircraft which he was intended to fly to New York were last seen at Sprottau in late 1943. They were designated as AK-177 and had huge bomb bays big enough for a car. He called them the hidden Tarnnetz machines.

He also said said by July 1944 there were nine copies built of the He-277 B-5/R2 to fly one way to New York with DB603 engines later to be replaced by Jumo 222. These He-277 B-5 aircraft had extra fuel capacity built in for over 6000 kilometres with a 2,500kg load and a service ceiling of 15,000m.

Steve Cranton's "The Wing of the Luftwaffe" (1972) cites from documents captured in Austria that

Allied intelligence officers strongly believed that between 8 and 10 He 277 were produced

Hitler's Last Weapons, Josef Garlinski, Magnum Books 1979 is another reference.
In addition there were also three H-277 prototypes. V-1 to V-3.

He-343 Jet bomber at Oslo 1945

The Allies also discovered in Norway a really interesting jet bomber being developed in a secret project at Oslo called the Riesenbomber which associates it with Komplex Reise near Swidnica (Schweidnitz) where a jet aircraft called the V-7 project was under construction. This aircraft was the four engined He-343. An exampled was taken back to the United States for ultra secret flight testing.

RAF 38 Group

Final comment on Oslo. I have located an 85 year former RAF fitter from 38 Group. He was at Gardermoen near Oslo in 1945, so I have emailed him to see if he can settle the question. I will post any reply that I get. Hopefully that will settle the question once and for all.