Kiwikid
Airman 1st Class
In relation to the construction of aircraft near Oslo does anybody know details about the Oslo aircraft factory bombed by 51 RAF Lancasters and 4 Mosquitos of No 5 Group, on 28 April 1944
Messerschmitt Me 264 and Heinkel He 277.
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Hello Kiwikid
Ah, conspiracy theory, now your worst hurdle is, that there seems to have been no He 177s/277s among the planes at Gardemoen. And that is Norwegian info with no connection to BRD. You needed something more substantial than memories 60-65 years after the fact to overturn that. For ex. 38 Groups reports from 1945 etc. British made inventories of a/c found at captured air fields, I have seen one which gives info on planes found in Denmark, I might have seen one on those found in Southern Norway but I have not time to try to locate a possible copy of it from my piles.
BTW He 177 V101 – 103 = He 277 V1 – V3.
Juha
Ah, conspiracy theory, now your worst hurdle is, that there seems to have been no He 177s/277s among the planes at Gardemoen. And that is Norwegian info with no connection to BRD. You needed something more substantial than memories 60-65 years after the fact to overturn that. For ex. 38 Groups reports from 1945 etc. British made inventories of a/c found at captured air fields, I have seen one which gives info on planes found in Denmark, I might have seen one on those found in Southern Norway but I have not time to try to locate a possible copy of it from my piles.
BTW He 177 V101 – 103 = He 277 V1 – V3.
Juha
Hello Kiwikid
A bit more
In the Norwegian page one source mentioned is S.A.I.B. Report No 1, it might well be a British inventory report on a/c found in Norway.
And
Quote: "The German government is still sensitive about the publishing of plans to attack USA and applies extraordinary pressure to Griehl and other authors not to publish everything."
I have a bit difficult to follow the logic here. First of all the plans are known at least since summer 45, even the term Amerika bomber gives away the idea. I have seen at least 100 pages written on Amerika bomber projects, even if haven't read all of them. So the plan has not been secret for at least 64 years. We also know other German plans to attack USA, why only this one, in fact a plan for a legal military operation, would be so hush-hush when it is already well known, I mean the plan to bomb USA eastern coast cities, when the gov of Germany had not made as effective measures to suppress info on really criminal acts of Nazi Germany?
Juha
A bit more
In the Norwegian page one source mentioned is S.A.I.B. Report No 1, it might well be a British inventory report on a/c found in Norway.
And
Quote: "The German government is still sensitive about the publishing of plans to attack USA and applies extraordinary pressure to Griehl and other authors not to publish everything."
I have a bit difficult to follow the logic here. First of all the plans are known at least since summer 45, even the term Amerika bomber gives away the idea. I have seen at least 100 pages written on Amerika bomber projects, even if haven't read all of them. So the plan has not been secret for at least 64 years. We also know other German plans to attack USA, why only this one, in fact a plan for a legal military operation, would be so hush-hush when it is already well known, I mean the plan to bomb USA eastern coast cities, when the gov of Germany had not made as effective measures to suppress info on really criminal acts of Nazi Germany?
Juha
Check out my previous posts regarding Special He177 aircraft in Norway
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/bombers-bomb-nyc-16062.html
http://www.ww2aircraft.net/forum/aviation/bombers-bomb-nyc-16062.html
Krieghund and Kiwikid
if you are really interested on possibility of He 177s in Norway You might well ask info on the subject at
Aviation History Society Norway Forum • Index page
There seems to be not much trafic at the forum, but the people running the site had very good knowledge on LW in Norway, they have published excellent books on the subject.
Juha
if you are really interested on possibility of He 177s in Norway You might well ask info on the subject at
Aviation History Society Norway Forum • Index page
There seems to be not much trafic at the forum, but the people running the site had very good knowledge on LW in Norway, they have published excellent books on the subject.
Juha
That is because the German government is not sensitive about the subject of bombing the United States. There are tons of publications on the matter. I have several books on the topic as well.
drgondog
Major
Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
Actually the Steinbock raids from January to April 1944 over Britain could have inflicted real rewards had they been sustained but cuts in high octane fuel supplies stymied these diving night raids.
The He 277 had sufficient service ceiling, 47,000 ft, that had the He-277 been used in level day raids over the UK in sufficient numbers they might too have had an appreciable impact. The focus on bombing New York made no sense unless they had the A-bomb.
Irrespective of the naysayers, it is pretty evident whether or not they managed to develop nuclear weapons it was certainly an intention behind plans to attack New York.
Alex Baum, a former German speaking French inmate of Buchenwald, wheo went on to Penemunde and the central works, witnessed and heard Wherner von Braun discuss rockets as the "ultimate weapon" that would destroy the United States and everything else. He spoke in front of Baum about the Amerika rocket.
It was noted by Churchill's advisors during the war that it made no sense to spend so much on developing the V-2 only to deliver 980kg of high explosives.
The He 277 had sufficient service ceiling, 47,000 ft, that had the He-277 been used in level day raids over the UK in sufficient numbers they might too have had an appreciable impact. The focus on bombing New York made no sense unless they had the A-bomb.
Irrespective of the naysayers, it is pretty evident whether or not they managed to develop nuclear weapons it was certainly an intention behind plans to attack New York.
Alex Baum, a former German speaking French inmate of Buchenwald, wheo went on to Penemunde and the central works, witnessed and heard Wherner von Braun discuss rockets as the "ultimate weapon" that would destroy the United States and everything else. He spoke in front of Baum about the Amerika rocket.
It was noted by Churchill's advisors during the war that it made no sense to spend so much on developing the V-2 only to deliver 980kg of high explosives.
bobbysocks
Chief Master Sergeant
prop...you do know this thread is a year old....dont you?
Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
Sorry Bobbysocks but the topic interests me. Surely it's preferable to opening a whole new topic.
The He-277 incidentally would not have needed escort fighters since no fighter in the Allied inventory could intercept the He-277 at it's 49,200ft service ceiling.
The ultra high altitude Spitfire XIV (H) was the best available and that topped out at about 44,600ft. Actual experience with the Spitfire type VB showed that a real problem with high altitude interception was that ice formed on ammunition belts jammed the guns even when engine heat was ducted into gun bays.
The only prospect of stopping a raid by He-277 lay in getting them on the ground at their bases or in their climb to altitude over Germany.
Njaco
The Pop-Tart Whisperer
Could a YB-17 been used to take out a high-flying 277? just curious.
Glider
Captain
This is going to sound like a silly question but does anyone know if the He277 actually made it to approx 50,000ft. I say this as very little was known about flying at those altitudes and the difficulties that would be encountered. She may well had had a design altitude of that magnitude but that isn't the same as achieving it.
The RAF had been experimenting with high altitude flight from the late 1920's and their best WW2 fighters topped out at around 45,000 ft.
The RAF had a research aircraft that reached 54,000 ft in 1937 and the Italians were close behind reaching over 51,000 ft but I am not aware of any German aircraft or company that had this experience. Basically if the RAF with experience of high altitude flight struggled to exceed 45,000 ft why should the Luftwaffe with no experience in this specialised field, beat this with ease.
Germany had an excellent understanding of the physical stresses of high altitude flight largely due to the work of Theodore Benzinger who was a leader in aviation medicine during the 1930's iro high altitude flights but his work (I believe) was ground based using decompression chambers. What I am unsure about is the practical research into high level aircraft, test planes and aerodynamics. It is of course true to say that Germany had a good lead in high speed aerodynamics but this is a different speciality.
If anyone has any information into this it would be appreciated as it seams to me that to go from almost nothing to a production bomber capable of flying higher than any fighter is to put it mildly a tall order.
The RAF had been experimenting with high altitude flight from the late 1920's and their best WW2 fighters topped out at around 45,000 ft.
The RAF had a research aircraft that reached 54,000 ft in 1937 and the Italians were close behind reaching over 51,000 ft but I am not aware of any German aircraft or company that had this experience. Basically if the RAF with experience of high altitude flight struggled to exceed 45,000 ft why should the Luftwaffe with no experience in this specialised field, beat this with ease.
Germany had an excellent understanding of the physical stresses of high altitude flight largely due to the work of Theodore Benzinger who was a leader in aviation medicine during the 1930's iro high altitude flights but his work (I believe) was ground based using decompression chambers. What I am unsure about is the practical research into high level aircraft, test planes and aerodynamics. It is of course true to say that Germany had a good lead in high speed aerodynamics but this is a different speciality.
If anyone has any information into this it would be appreciated as it seams to me that to go from almost nothing to a production bomber capable of flying higher than any fighter is to put it mildly a tall order.
Just as with the Ju 86 there would've eventually been fighters to deal with the threat. And bombing from 50,000 ft means bombing london and hoping to hit something vital or to kill as many civilians as you can. It would've changed nothing in the bigger picture.
Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
Firstly Hitler did not issue a request for a heavy bomber to attack England until after an Allied raid on Munich outraged him. At a meeting between Hitler and various aircraft designers held at Obersalzberg in May 1943, Hitler demanded an offensive bomber able to strike over Britain day and night. Because Heinkel had discreetly continued to work on the He-177 A-4 which Goering opposed, he was the only designer ready and able to offer a solution in the short time which Hitler demanded.
The aircraft proposed had to have exceptional high altitude performance, able to avoid Allied fighter interception. For development purposes this aircraft was known as the He177 A-8, however in August 1943, with Hitler's blessings RLM re-designated this type as the He-277. He-277 testing began at the end of 1943 and production was ready to proceed in April 1944.
Six pre-production aircraft had been constructed by then at Reichlin, through converting He-177 A-6/R1 & R2 prototypes. It is claimed sixteen airframes had been completed and Stammkenzeichen had been issued for 25 of the type. These six pre-production aircraft underwent flight tests at Zwolfaxing. An air raid on Schwechat on 23 April 1944 interrupted production followed by an even worse raid of 26 June. The Emergency Fighter Program finally killed production on 3 July.
Most of the performance data cited for the He-277 comes from a paper study in 1943 which envisaged using the BMW801 engine which was totally unsuited for the high altitude bombing role. Thus the data people rely upon to understand He-277 capabilities are misleading, especially in relation to altitude performance.
The initial production version would have had either DB603A, DB603AA or DB603S engines. Two pre-production prototypes were flown with the DB603G engine proving a ceiling of 49,210ft.
The DB603G engine was cancelled during 1944 in favour of the DB603N which began appearing in 1945. The capabilities of the He-277 therefore would have been tied to engine development had the He-277 bomber gone into service.
With DB603G or DB603N engines the He-277 was intended to reach 50,000ft making it invulnerable to Allied fighters.
The DB603A engine permitted a service ceiling of 36,600ft superior to the B-29 Superfortress, but not sufficient to protect them from Spitfires which could reach 42,000ft.
Propellorhead
Airman 1st Class
They would not have expended such valuable aircraft & crews like that, but it was discussed as an option. One option Milch proposed was to create an airfield in Greenland and stage He-177 flights through an airstrip created at Mestersvig.
Four Ju-290 A-0 series aircraft were converted as tankers with an intention of escorting attack bombers outbound. Various long range tests over the Atlantic performed by a Ju-390 with a Ju-290 tanker proved this only extended the bomber's range by about 30%.
Another solution was the development of a hybrid 53 tonne Heinkel bomber with the fuselage of a Greif mated to the wings of an Me-264. By late 1944 a project began to develop this bomber with a 12,500km range carrying a 3t bomb load.
Vahe Demirjian
Banned
The assertion that He 177A-8 was a cover designation for He 277 has been debunked --- see the Heinkel He 277 article at Wikipedia. Also, the He 277 had a much bigger wingspan than the He 177B.
