Metal Mosquito

[FLYBOYJ]

FLYBOYJ. I think you will find that this is called an FMA IA 58 Pucará and easier to hit with an L7A2 GPMG than a Douglas A4 Skyhawk.

It was providing the opposition had L7A2s. Yes, you "would of" had basically a Pucará years earlier, with the note that operatioally the Pucará would be the safer aircraft to operate based on configuration.

 

[hrandy]

The Japanese experienced significant weight gains in the aircraft they were redesigned to utilize wood. The Russians found that in addition to weight loss they had more internal volume and could fit larger fuel tanks.

Wood simply creates too many compromises because it is strongest in compression and weak in tension. Certainly a 10% weight loss is a reasonable low estimate a metal mosquito.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Certainly a 10% weight loss is a reasonable low estimate a metal mosquito.

That's a strong possibility providing there weren't many additional detailed sub assemblies needed in the replacement of one piece wood components.

 

[wuzak]

Most ?
OK, list some of your sources.

AFAIK, there is no specific study between any aircraft made all wood or all metal.

However there were some aircraft I know of, where single components were switched from wood to metal or vice versa. The wooden one was heavier, without exception:

1. La-5FN. Wooden wing spars and some ribs were changed to aluminum alloy. Weight saving 100 kg.

2. Some of the late Bf109G's had wooden tails (due to material shortage). They were so much heavier, that they needed a 25kg counterbalance in the nose. In Finland, as the material deteriorated rapidly due to exposure to the elements, they were changed back to metal tails.

3. In Finland, wings of one Brewster were changed to locally designed wooden ones. Total weight increase was 250kg.

The post war De Havilland Hornet wings were partially made of Al-alloy also.

The Japanese experienced significant weight gains in the aircraft they were redesigned to utilize wood. The Russians found that in addition to weight loss they had more internal volume and could fit larger fuel tanks.

Wood simply creates too many compromises because it is strongest in compression and weak in tension. Certainly a 10% weight loss is a reasonable low estimate a metal mosquito.

These examples are all well and good, but though they are also utsing wood they are not using it the same way.

The fuselage was a composite sanwich moncoque construction. The composite sandwich consisted of plywood skins over a balsa core. The wing used stressed skins, with two plywood skins (spaced by spruce) on the upper surface and a single skin on the lower surface, built over two laminated spars.

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspac...es/10573/de-havilland-dh-mosquito-cutaway.jpg

http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g54/5554/5554_1170786602_large.jpg

I have little doubt that the DH88 Comet, also made of wood, could have been built lighter using metal. But it did not use the same construction as the Mosquito.

The DH91 Lbatross did, however.

 

[wuzak]

Dadblang it, where do I upload zip files? Have a file on day Mossie bomber losses that puts the absolute number in perspective..

If you go to the advanced reply option (press the Go Advanced butoon in the bottom right of the quick reply window) there is a file atachment button in the controls.

 

[wuzak]

Here is (what I assume to be) an all metal aircraft of similar size to the Mosquito.

It is lighter, but also has lighter engines and does not have radiators etc.

 

[Piper106]

I have thought about a 'metal Mosquito' a number of times. Not so much for Europe, more for in the southwest Pacific or tropical Africa. I recall the Hornet was used used in Malaysia in the late 40s, but I don't think a Mosquito or the DH Hornet are the best fit for the hot moist tropics. Tropics + wood = rot and termite damage = bad for wood airplanes.

My though for a 'metal Mosquito' would be the Ju 188S/T and/or the Ju 388K/L. A Ju 388K with a pair of Griffons or or a pair of Sabres done up with annular radiators as 'power eggs' might be interesting.

I am now closing the blast doors. That vein in Readie's forehead looks like it is going to burst.

Piper106

 

[yulzari]

You know Piper106 (tongue in cheek) I doubt if the Luftwaffe would let the RAF have any of their aeroplanes; even if asked very nicely....

So no Ju88/188/388 will address the RAF's bombing strategy question.

De Havilland plywood/balsa is not subject to insect damage. The Hornet and Mosquito (and Vampire for that matter) served in tropics and at sea so temperature and damp were not an issue either. Now, if you neglect the waterprooofing fabric outer wrapping, then you will see a problem. This is why abandoned surplus ones rotted out.

 

[PJay]

The early Mosquitos had a problem with the glue going mouldy inside the fuselage in tropical conditions. This was fixed for later aircraft. IIRC.

 

[wuzak]

The early Mosquitos had a problem with the glue going mouldy inside the fuselage in tropical conditions. This was fixed for later aircraft. IIRC.

Yes, the glue was changed after problems in the tropics.

Not sure if it went "mouldy" or just lost its bonding capabilities and thus compromised structural strength.

 

[rank amateur]

Here is (what I assume to be) an all metal aircraft of similar size to the Mosquito.

It is lighter, but also has lighter engines and does not have radiators etc.

It also lacks performance, range and bomload. I can't think of any reason why a country post war would build an aircraft which is already out classed by any A20 from 6 years earlier. Unless to get a national aircraft industry going

 

[wuzak]

It also lacks performance, range and bomload. I can't think of any reason why a country post war would build an aircraft which is already out classed by any A20 from 6 years earlier. Unless to get a national aircraft industry going

The performance would have been similar to the Mosquito had the Merlins been available.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Folks, I'll say it again. Wood does not do well when you take the aircraft out of it's construction environment and expose it to extreme changes in temperatures and humidity. The glue problem on the Mosquito was solved but temperature related problem plagued many wood aircraft and the Mosquito was no exception.

"First located at Ekron (Tel-Nof) AFB, the Mosquitoes quickly moved to Hazor where the 109th Mosquito squadron was formed, comprising of three sections : operational, training and reconnaissance. A fourth section for night fighting was set up with the arrival of the Mk. 30s in 1952. The large number of aircraft received exceeded the storage room available at Hazor and the Mosquitoes were parked in the sun. This wrecked havoc on the wooden aircraft and many malfunctioned until shelters were build for the entire Mosquito force."

the mosquito in israeli service

 

[wuzak]

Folks, I'll say it again. Wood does not do well when you take the aircraft out of it's construction environment and expose it to extreme changes in temperatures and humidity. The glue problem on the Mosquito was solved but temperature related problem plagued many wood aircraft and the Mosquito was no exception.

"First located at Ekron (Tel-Nof) AFB, the Mosquitoes quickly moved to Hazor where the 109th Mosquito squadron was formed, comprising of three sections : operational, training and reconnaissance. A fourth section for night fighting was set up with the arrival of the Mk. 30s in 1952. The large number of aircraft received exceeded the storage room available at Hazor and the Mosquitoes were parked in the sun. This wrecked havoc on the wooden aircraft and many malfunctioned until shelters were build for the entire Mosquito force."

the mosquito in israeli service

Unfortunately the report does not specify what "malfunctions" were. To me a malfunction is something that happens to mechanical systems, like an engine, or control rods. If it were a problem for the airframe I would expect to see the word "failure".

The report also says:

The night fighter Mosquitoes, the NF Mk. 30s, also suffered a great deal from the local weather. Delievered devoid of their radars, these aircraft were fitted with the American APS-4 naval radar and wore a black livery. In 1953 they formed the IAF's first night fighter squadron but the poor performance shown by the new radars, the poor maintenance and the corrosive local weather hampered their operation.

But it again does not say how they suffered.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

But it again does not say how they suffered.

Having worked on wood aircraft I could bet dollars to donuts they had shrinkage. I've seen other reports about post war Mosquitoes having issues in the field, I'll have to find them

 

[wuzak]

Having worked on wood aircraft I could bet dollars to donuts they had shrinkage. I've seen other reports about post war Mosquitoes having issues in the field, I'll have to find them

Causing deformation of the airframe/wings?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The current holy grail of warbird restoration is an airworthy de Havilland Mosquito, one of the very last of the major World War II types not represented by a flying restoration or accurate replica. Mosquitos were once plentiful, but other than the 30-odd parked in museums and non-flying displays, all have succumbed to the inevitable deterioration of their wood airframes and, particularly, the glue used to fabricate them. The last flying example crashed fatally at an airshow in Manchester, England, in July 1996.

Mosquito to Buzz Again

Boom - headshot!

It should be easy to build a wooden airplane, right? EAAers do it all the time. Actually, it would be a far simpler restoration if Mosquitos were aluminum, for a big part of the job consists of building the large fuselage molds, the tooling and the extremely precise wing and attachment jigs that must be in place before a rebuild can really begin. All of de Havilland's jigs and tools had been scrapped in the early 1950s, so the Mosquito literally had to be reinvented.

 

[GregP]

Causing deformation, separation, warping, and outright failure under normal load.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Causing deformation of the airframe/wings?

No, any metal fittings attached into the wood structure becomes loose because the wood is shrinking. I seen on Pitts bi-planes that were brought into California from colder climates.

Glued components can and will seperate

 

[tyrodtom]

Here is (what I assume to be) an all metal aircraft of similar size to the Mosquito.

It is lighter, but also has lighter engines and does not have radiators etc.

The Calquin was also wood, and about 100 mph slower than the Mosquito.