Moral objections on warfare.

evangilder · Apr 10, 2005

I didn't say it was right or good. What I said is that compensation is a tricky thing. Some of these companies have paid some amount of compensation. But again, what price can you put on a life? 1 million, 100 million, more, less? A written apology, maybe a college tuition fund for survivors or descendants, a memorial.

What Marcos did was criminal, but you cannot pay everyone back what was taken from them. Yes, it would be nice if that could happen, but that is unrealistic. They didn't just steal money and then keep it in a vault. They spent it, obviously.

Yes, wrong things have been done and there should be some form of "punishment" for the perpetrators, but compensation is a slippery slope that could lead to even worse situations. I do believe that Germany was saddled with war reparations after WWI. See where that lead?

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 10, 2005

This is pretty much how I see it. Yes something should be done to companies that used slave labor or things of that nature like Krupp and Bayar, however I think that it should have been done earlier. You can not ask someone today who works or owns these companies to pay for what was done 60 or more years ago. That is like demanding that a man who nows lives on the property that his grandfather once used as a plantation give his house to a descendent of a slave. Or that a grandson of a concentration camp guard should not be allowed to live a normal life or be required to pay restitutions is also wrong. He had nothing to do with it. I dont think anyone who was born to someone who has done wrong is wrong. I do believe though that as was said it should not be forgotten and prevented and this is what you see now in modern germany, the future of Germany does not deny it they are just tired of being blamed for it. They were not alive and should not be.

RG_Lunatic said:
As an example, when I was working at DUKE University, I knew a black man who was quite resentful of the fact that he worked in a textile factory owned and run by a family that's wealth came from their great-great-grandfather who made the money by exploiting, and often killing, his anscestors. I can certainly see his point - can't you? That family runs a large area based upon ill gotten wealth, and still control the lives of many of the descendants of their ancsestors victims through their ecomomic domination.

As for this one no offense but I have no sympothy for his man because he chose to work there. If he does not like it he can work someplace else.

Anonymous · Apr 10, 2005

Yes Japan is very bad about owning up to what they did. It pisses me off when, every year, the Japanese condemn the USA for the A-Bombings, when they don't even know their own history.

When asked about Japan's roll in WWII, most Japanese respond that Japan was a "not very agressive" nation that the USA conquered. Their schools do not cover the slaughter in China and the Philapines, the sex-slaves, or how the Japanese treated prisioners. No mention of Unit 731 is presented at all!

=S=

Lunatic

Anonymous · Apr 10, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
This is pretty much how I see it. Yes something should be done to companies that used slave labor or things of that nature like Krupp and Bayar, however I think that it should have been done earlier. You can not ask someone today who works or owns these companies to pay for what was done 60 or more years ago. That is like demanding that a man who nows lives on the property that his grandfather once used as a plantation give his house to a descendent of a slave. Or that a grandson of a concentration camp guard should not be allowed to live a normal life or be required to pay restitutions is also wrong. He had nothing to do with it. I dont think anyone who was born to someone who has done wrong is wrong. I do believe though that as was said it should not be forgotten and prevented and this is what you see now in modern germany, the future of Germany does not deny it they are just tired of being blamed for it. They were not alive and should not be.

So they are rich based upon the doings of their fathers and the victims are poor and that is okay with you?

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
RG_Lunatic said:

As an example, when I was working at DUKE University, I knew a black man who was quite resentful of the fact that he worked in a textile factory owned and run by a family that's wealth came from their great-great-grandfather who made the money by exploiting, and often killing, his anscestors. I can certainly see his point - can't you? That family runs a large area based upon ill gotten wealth, and still control the lives of many of the descendants of their ancsestors victims through their ecomomic domination.

Click to expand...

As for this one no offense but I have no sympothy for his man because he chose to work there. If he does not like it he can work someplace else.

But the problem is that that family owns almost all the major businesses in the area. Schooling is poor. Finances are minimal. It is not so easy for the people who have lived there for generations to just pack up and move somwhere else with nothing.

I agree, something should have been done long ago. But is that a reason nothing should be done today? Is it right that a family should persist in holding billions of $ of assests dating back to the mid 1800's which were bought with profits from slavery and none of it should be used to compensate the families of those who actually did the work?

The fact is that where you end up in life is almost always dependant upon where you start. Yes there are a few exceptions, but statistically they are a minute percentage. The rich tend to get richer, the poor stay poor. When wealth is based upon evil acts, redress should be enforced. Don't you see that there is something wrong with the idea that if the wrong doers are politically/socially powerful enough to delay redress they get to keep all of their ill gotten gains?

=S=

Lunatic

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 11, 2005

RG_Lunatic said:
DerAdlerIstGelandet said:

This is pretty much how I see it. Yes something should be done to companies that used slave labor or things of that nature like Krupp and Bayar, however I think that it should have been done earlier. You can not ask someone today who works or owns these companies to pay for what was done 60 or more years ago. That is like demanding that a man who nows lives on the property that his grandfather once used as a plantation give his house to a descendent of a slave. Or that a grandson of a concentration camp guard should not be allowed to live a normal life or be required to pay restitutions is also wrong. He had nothing to do with it. I dont think anyone who was born to someone who has done wrong is wrong. I do believe though that as was said it should not be forgotten and prevented and this is what you see now in modern germany, the future of Germany does not deny it they are just tired of being blamed for it. They were not alive and should not be.

Click to expand...

So they are rich based upon the doings of their fathers and the victims are poor and that is okay with you?

I dont think you understand what I am trying to say. I am saying that someone who owns a family business that did some wrong doing lets say in 1829 should not be responsible for what happened back then. You can not condemn or ask for restitution from people that were not alive 200 years ago. I do not feel any guilt for anything that my country may have done during WW2. Just like you should not feel guilty for what the US did to the Native Americans. I feel that what happened in both cases is extremely wrong and should be condemded as they have and that restitutions should have been made and I pray that these very very evil things never happen again but neither I or you were responsible for it nor were the people who own the companies. As was stated before we just have to make sure things like this never happen again.

RG_Lunatic said:
But the problem is that that family owns almost all the major businesses in the area. Schooling is poor. Finances are minimal. It is not so easy for the people who have lived there for generations to just pack up and move somwhere else with nothing.

I agree, something should have been done long ago. But is that a reason nothing should be done today? Is it right that a family should persist in holding billions of $ of assests dating back to the mid 1800's which were bought with profits from slavery and none of it should be used to compensate the families of those who actually did the work?

The fact is that where you end up in life is almost always dependant upon where you start. Yes there are a few exceptions, but statistically they are a minute percentage. The rich tend to get richer, the poor stay poor. When wealth is based upon evil acts, redress should be enforced. Don't you see that there is something wrong with the idea that if the wrong doers are politically/socially powerful enough to delay redress they get to keep all of their ill gotten gains?

Again this situation needs more information. You can not blame the education system or Lack of Jobs. This person very well could have had paid more attention in school, gotten better grades and gotten a better job then they would not have to work for this person. This employer again should not have to take any blame for what happened. I see this all the time in Columbia, Carolina where my sister lives. (She went to the University of South Carolina and then married an American and lives there now). Much of the population lives in poverty and do not even recieve high school educations. They blame it on the society and the government but then what are people like myself supposed to say when we see these people in there yard everyday drinking 40's and playing basket ball even though they are only 15 and should be in classes. I feel they are to blame for there own actions not society, ethnic groups or the government, but they still find a way to put the blame on others. I can not say this is the case with the man you are talking about because I do not have eneogh info to make an opinion but based off of what I believe, his employer can not be blamed for this.

mosquitoman · Apr 12, 2005

RG_Lunatic said:
No mention of Unit 731 is presented at all!

What's Unit 731?

Anonymous · Apr 12, 2005

mosquitoman said:
RG_Lunatic said:

No mention of Unit 731 is presented at all!

Click to expand...

What's Unit 731?

Makes the German concentration camps look like a stay at a resort.

http://roswell.fortunecity.com/skulls/37/unit731.htm
http://www.technologyartist.com/unit_731/
http://www.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/NanjingMassacre/NMU731.html
http://www.ww2pacific.com/unit731.html
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9808/16/japan.war.crimes/

These are about the textbook screening suit, which was filed by a Japanese man against the Japanese government for specifically excluding all mention of Japanese mis-deeds from Japanese text books:

http://www.jca.apc.org/JWRC/center/english/Courtcas.htm#2
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/law/y.fujita/ts/p95_0.html

This is a good general link on the overall issues:

http://www.jca.apc.org/JWRC/center/english/index-english.htm

=S=

Lunatic

Nonskimmer · Apr 12, 2005

Well the Chinese have certainly never forgotten about it!

Anonymous · Apr 12, 2005

The problem is the Japanese seem to think that because they paid off a few corrupt politicians their liability is over with.

FLYBOYJ · Apr 12, 2005

HOW TRUE!

trackend · Apr 13, 2005

RE: RG's post I cant fathom the mentality of people who would do such atrositises they are beyond any words of contempt I may write here they just make me heave and to dismise it as it appears from your posts these vile creatures are an insult to the human race.

evangilder · Apr 13, 2005

They really bastardized the Bushido code and the whole honor thing. I think it is still partly an honor thing why it is not more common knowledge to the Japanese. They may be and should be ashamed for the many atrocities against just about any indigenous people they came across and their enemies as well.

Anonymous · Apr 13, 2005

It is what happens when you accept the concept that all men are not created equal. That some have a natural or God given superiority and therefore the right to rule over the lesser humans. Once this is accepted, the de-humanization naturally proceeds until the "lesser" peoples are considered no better than animals. And then, because of the guilt they feel in their hearts, the self-proclaimed "superior" humans tend to inflict even more cruelty upon the "inferior" humans than they would even upon animals.

This is why you must stand up and oppose any form of racism the moment you see or hear it. A little racism is never okay - that slope is steep and slippery and it is surprising how far people fall once they go even a little over the precipice.

=S=

Lunatic

trackend · Apr 13, 2005

Morning Evan.It makes me even more grateful to all those guys and girls who fought against the axis powers imagine what the world be like if these monsters had succeeded in their conquests.

evangilder · Apr 13, 2005

Agreed, trackend. It would indeed be a much different world. But we have to remember that in WWII, the Japanese were de-humanized by the Americans as well. The propaganda posters of the era either portray the slant-eyed, buck-tooth stereotype, or the dark and sinister Jap, as they were called in those days. It is an unfortunate side effect of the war. I can certainly see how it happened as the stories of the atrocities done by the Japanese started to become known.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 13, 2005

The only thing I do not agree with is the way the Japanese Americans were interned in camps like they were criminals even though they did nothing wrong just because they were of the same ethnic group. At the same time I think it is quite amazing how the Japanese Americans stood up and fought for the US after there families were treated so. The unit was the 442nd and they became the most decorated unit in WW2 for the United States. For me they are true heroes and should never be forgotten.

442 Regimental Combat Team in World War II

Individual and Presidential Citations Over 18,000
Distinguished Service Cross 52
Distinguished Service Medal 1
Silver Star 560
Silver Star with Oak Leaf Clusters 28
Legion of Merit 22
Bronze Star 4,000
Croix de Guerre 12
Purple Heart Approx 9,500
Deaths Over 700

This whole unit was made up of Japanese Americans!

After the attack on Pearl Harbor, there was a backlash against all Japanese living in US. In repsonse, a battalion of Nisei volunteers (second generation Japanese-Americans) was organized from units of the Hawaiian National Guard and designated the 100th Battalion (Seperate). This unit was sent to Camp Shelby, MS for training in 1942. There were many skeptics that did not think the Nisei would be remain loyal to America. All the officers were haole (Hawaiian for white).
President Roosevelt was impressed with their training and on 1 February 1943, he directed the formation of a regiment that was designated the 442nd Infantry Regiment. With the addition of the 522nd Field Artillery Battalion and the 232nd Engineer Battalion, along with the orignal 100th Battalion, the 442nd Combat Team was established at Camp Shelby.
The 442nd Combat Team went in combat in Italy. Just the 100th Battalion entered combat with the 34th Infantry Division on 27 September, 1943. Soon after the fall of Rome on 4 June, 1944, all the units of the 442nd Combat Team were together. They continued to fight in Italy and then in Southern France. The 442nd Combat Team, less the 522 Field Artillery Battalion, returned to Italy in April 1945, where they were attached to the 92nd Division.
The Nisei proved their loyality and their bravery. The 442nd Combat Team was one of the most highly decorated units in WW2. However, no members had earned the Congressional Medal of Honor by the end of the war. Some suggested it was still due to prejudice. After a review of their records in June 2000, President Clinton awarded an additional 20 Medals of Honor to members of the 442nd Regimental Combat Team. Included in this group was U.S. Senator Daniel Inouye of Hawaii, who had his right arm shattered by a grenade while successfully destroying three German machine gun nests in April 1945. Motto: GO FOR BROKE
http://members.aol.com/ItalyWW2/442RCT.htm

evangilder · Apr 13, 2005

There is an interesting section on them in the Japanes American museum in LA. There is also a movie about them. I believe it was called Go for broke, after the unit.

Anonymous · Apr 13, 2005

DerAdlerIstGelandet said:
The only thing I do not agree with is the way the Japanese Americans were interned in camps like they were criminals even though they did nothing wrong just because they were of the same ethnic group. At the same time I think it is quite amazing how the Japanese Americans stood up and fought for the US after there families were treated so. The unit was the 442nd and they became the most decorated unit in WW2 for the United States. For me they are true heroes and should never be forgotten.

Well, that is a hard issue. The fact is that there were many Black Dragon members amoungst the Japanese/American population, especially in Hawaii. Spying, and especially sabotage, were a serious concern and it would only have taken a very small percentage of that population to do very serious harm.

Also, there is another aspect to this internment. The Japanese/Americans were not really safe from vigilantees during WWII. If they had not been interned many would have died at the hands of lynch mobs.

For many years I had a GF who was half Japanese, and I heard some stories about the internment camps from her father, uncle, and granparents. While it was certainly no picknick, it was no concentration camp by a long shot. And, this "wrong" has been righted as best as it can be, internment victims have been financially compensated and they have recieved an official appology.

=S=

Lunatic

FLYBOYJ · Apr 13, 2005

I worked with a guy who was interned during WWII. He was at the camp by Bishop CA. I think he got $75,000 around 1992. He remembers the camp and said that he felt it really wasn't that bad, although he was a child at the time. His family managed to get their home back after the war.

DerAdlerIstGelandet · Apr 14, 2005

That is good atleast they got there home back. Dont take me wrong I would never compare it to anything like a Concentration Camp or something of that nature I just think it was a wrong thing to do. However yes atleast they were compensated.

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