Moral objections on warfare.

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

That is what they tell us also, that you are an ambassador but unfortunatly there a lot of bad apples.

 

[Nonskimmer]

Heh! It's kinda funny, but can you guys spot Canadians in an airport? It's easy. A lot of them sew Canadian flags to their backpacks, ball caps, just about anywhere. You know why? It's because they don't want to be mistaken for Americans when they travel abroad.

In a way I suppose I can see where they're coming from, but it's not a practice I've taken up. I personally have absolutely no problem with Americans. I certainly know a few assholes who happen to be Americans, but then again I know far more of them who happen to be Canadians.

And what a lot of Canucks don't seem to realize is, we're not really half as liked around the world as what they'd like to believe anyway.

You are what you are, no matter where you hail from.

 

[evangilder]

Sad that it has come to that. But with our current situation, we are not as well liked as we used to be. But when travelling abroad, I think it is prudent to blend in as much as possible. Carrying a Canadian flag certainly doesn't help one blend!

You're right though, assholes come from everywhere!

 

[Nonskimmer]

Except Nova Scotia.

Yeah, I wish!

 

[Anonymous]

Adler,

I recently saw a documentary showing that something like 50% of German 16 year olds had no idea what the Holocaust was, and that something like a third of 30 year olds did not believe anywhere near 6 million Jews were slaughtered. I know it makes you angry to hear this, but this is what researchers have found is the truth of the matter.

=S=

Lunatic

And you believe every goddamn thing that is ever written. Who went to German school, you or me! Deffinatly not you prick! Second of all the documentary you probably saw was written and filmed by either Michael Moore (what a joke) or some disillusional person like yourself! This is what researchers found? What researchers? Probably american researchers like yourself! YOU ALWAYS ASK FOR SOURCES WHAT ARE YOUR SOURCES BECAUSE THEY OBVIOUSLY CORRUPT AND FULL OF s**t! My wife just read your post there (she is German) and she laughed at hour ignorant you are and all she could say was "Typische Ami". Do you know what that means? It means "Typical American!" Thinking they know everything better! Mind you she went to a German School for 13 years so I think she is a better source then you can come up with anyday!

My apologies Adler, it turns out it was a BBC report about British knowlege of the Holocaust. I goofed because the narrator interviewer on the TV documentary was German and I was not really watching the show, it was just on THC or DTIME. However, part of that documentary also covered German opinions about the war and the Nazi atrocities and it was clear that most dismissed it as an unimportant part of their history.

Here's a related article:

'Look to Germany to learn lessons of Holocaust'


Ambassador claims British can learn from his country's approach to its past
By Alan Crawford, Special Correspondent


BRITAIN can help counteract growing public ignorance of the Holocaust by learning from Germany's approach to remembering the second world war, according to the German ambassador.
As nations prepare to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz this Thursday, Ambassador Thomas Matussek pointed out that no German pupil leaves school without being taught in detail about the rise of Nazi Germany, the second world war and the Holocaust.

By contrast, a recent poll for the BBC found that 45% of adult respondents in Britain claimed they had never even heard of Auschwitz. That figure rises to 60% among women and people aged under 35.

More than 1,130,000 people, most of them Jews, were exterminated at Auschwitz in southern Poland. Formerly used to detain political prisoners, it became an SS concentration camp on June 14, 1940, and was liberated by the Russian Red Army on January 27, 1945.

Matussek's comments come just a week after Prince Harry, third in line to the throne, enraged the families of Holocaust victims worldwide when he was photographed at a fancy dress party dressed in a Nazi uniform.

Referring to poll findings, the German envoy suggested that a documentary series about Auschwitz currently showing on BBC television could be used by teachers in their lessons to give pupils in the UK a similar understanding of wartime events to those of their German counterparts.

"I would also suggest that, as well as information on the second world war, there could be greater awareness of the modern democratic Germany and the lessons that have been learned from that darkest chapter of our history," he said.

Matussek said that the poll findings could be explained by the focus of teaching of the second world war in British schools being "not quite right".

"Everybody seems to know who started the war and committed the atrocities, and of course who won – but perhaps less attention gets paid to the victims.

"For obvious reasons, my country has gone thorough soul-searching ever since the war. For instance, schools make trips to former concentration camps and learn what happened under Nazi rule. And it's certainly true that young Germans learn as much in school about the victims as they do about those who perpetrated the crimes."

Antony Beevor, military historian and author of the books Stalingrad and Berlin – The Downfall 1945, said the level of ignorance about Auschwitz in Britain was a "pretty devastating indictment of the education system", particularly at a time when many teachers were highlighting an exaggerated emphasis on the Third Reich.

He added: "The subject is taught much more thoroughly in German schools than it is in British schools."

The German ambassador has previously spoken out about the British media preoccupation with the Nazis and its "repetition of clichés and stereotypes", which he said fuelled xenophobia. His remarks were prompted by an attack on two German boys staying with British host families in south London, while children in the same party were heckled as "Nazis" in the street. Matussek said last week that "hardly a day goes by without a documentary or a film about the Nazi era", yet polls still point to a high level of ignorance of Auschwitz.

"The question is: who's watching? Who are the audiences? The people who experienced the war? My generation? It seems that it's mainly people who know about it anyway."

However, Neil Griffiths, spokesman for the Royal British Legion Scotland, said that after spending 20 years in Germany he felt Germans also had a tendency to "turn a blind eye" to wartime events.

"Having lived and worked and grown up in Germany and in Britain, I think we are on a par. By and large, I wouldn't say their remembrance and atonement is on a higher level than ours."

Europe Minister Denis MacShane, a German speaker, caused controversy last November when he said that Germany should get over its own "obsession" with Hitler and the war. "There are two problems with Britain's relationship with Germany," he said.

"The first is that very few opinion formers or policy-makers know modern Germany, read German or visit the country. The other is the pathological need of the isolationist press for enemies in Europe. Mind you, I think it is time the Germans themselves became less obsessed with Hitler and the second world war.

"We are in a new century, but too many Brits and Germans are still living in the last one."

23 January 2005
www.sundayherald.com/47273

Again, my apologies. It seems the Germans do undertake a serious effort to educate their people about what happened.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[trackend]

quote="Nonskimmer"] And what a lot of Canucks don't seem to realize is, we're not really half as liked around the world as what they'd like to believe anyway.

Well you still have an advantage over me Skim my missuss don't think much of me nor do the kids in fact when I look in a mirror im not too keen on myself either.

I think alot of British have come to terms at being not liked much as we have to take the flak for our ancestors and the days of Empire , slavery, invading 3- 5ths of the world, Taxation without representaion , burning Washington, the Irish potatoe famine numorous wars with just about everyone at some time or another, not to mention all the gun boat diplomacy ect,ect,ect.

The one thing that bugs me more than anything are the Brits who go abroad then start saying "ooo they would'nt do that in the UK"or "havent they got a fish and chip shop or a decent pub?".
Why the F;',....g hell do they bother going abroad for if all they want is the UK. And the final straw are the expats who emigrate to Australia or Canada ect then start wanging on about the bleeding mother country.(and it happens with people emigrating into the UK as well).
I cant think of a worse insult to give a country that has accepted you into its society fed you given you a job and sheltered you. As far as im concerned if I emigrated my loyalties would be 100% too that country no question about it. Same as it is to my own country now.
When I visit other countrys then as far as im concerned what ever they have as laws/rules ect then thats it, if I disagreed with them then I wouldnt go in the first place. If I really wanted go to say Umbungo Land and their law requires you to walk about with a feather up your arse. Its their country so show me the way to the Ostrich.

 

[the lancaster kicks ass]

well thank you for admiting that RG..........

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Heh! It's kinda funny, but can you guys spot Canadians in an airport? It's easy. A lot of them sew Canadian flags to their backpacks, ball caps, just about anywhere. You know why? It's because they don't want to be mistaken for Americans when they travel abroad.

In a way I suppose I can see where they're coming from, but it's not a practice I've taken up. I personally have absolutely no problem with Americans. I certainly know a few assholes who happen to be Americans, but then again I know far more of them who happen to be Canadians.

And what a lot of Canucks don't seem to realize is, we're not really half as liked around the world as what they'd like to believe anyway.

You are what you are, no matter where you hail from.

My friend who is from Ottowa says the same thing and even though he flies for the US Army he wears a Canadian Patch on the back of his flight helmet. But you are correct assholes come from everywhere.

Again, my apologies. It seems the Germans do undertake a serious effort to educate their people about what happened.

Apology accepted. It is more learned about then you think. When I was in school we took trips to Aushwitz and Dachau. We went to the German Holocaust Museum in Berlin, we spent many years learning about it. No one in Germany wants to forget it or say that it never happened, however the younger generation of Germans say the 20 years and younger dont want to be thrown into a pot and blamed for what happened and that is understandable.

 

[evangilder]

There is no reason for anyone who wasn't alive at the time to be blamed for that. To be honest, there are very few alive today that are to blame for it. The most important thing is that it is over and people learn about it so that it doesn't happen again.

 

[trackend]

There is no reason for anyone who wasn't alive at the time to be blamed for that. To be honest, there are very few alive today that are to blame for it. The most important thing is that it is over and people learn about it so that it doesn't happen again.

Here Here Evan.I think the best way to honour the dead is as you rightly say is not to let it happen ever again.

How far back do we go blaming the people now for what previous generations did. Lets pick on the decendants of the Romans after all they nailed the son of God to a wooden cross. its a nosensical thing to even contemplate.

 

[Anonymous]

There is no reason for anyone who wasn't alive at the time to be blamed for that. To be honest, there are very few alive today that are to blame for it. The most important thing is that it is over and people learn about it so that it doesn't happen again.

I absolutely agree. But I think it is important that we also acknowlege the sins of our forfathers and accept the fact of our darker nature. What happened in Germany has been done by the USA (w.r.t. the Native Americans) and by the British (w.r.t. any number of colonies), and by many other nations.

In order to stop such behaivor, it must be squashed at the onset of the kind of thinking that allows it. This basically means that any time someone tries to claim some other class of people are inferior or not deserving of basic rights, YOU need to stand up and say something!

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Anonymous]

How far back do we go blaming the people now for what previous generations did. Lets pick on the decendants of the Romans after all they nailed the son of God to a wooden cross. its a nosensical thing to even contemplate.

I basically feel that such things go back only as far as the overlap of Generations. For the most part, that means you bear some responsibilities for and have rights to redress for acts committed by or against your Grandparents, maybe your Great-Grandparents, but no further back than that.

This is why I do not support Israel's claim to the land in Palestine - it is based on a grievance that goes back far too far to redress. I think Israel should pay the Palestinians for their land.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[trackend]

In my opinion RG any generation is totally blame free for what their fathers or grandfathers did to me its like saying because you fell out of this womb its your fault that your mother was a mass murderer feeling guilt is understandable as im not too proud of some of the things carried out in the name of Britain but as I was not born at the time I refuse to take the blame for them but I do understand the point you are making that as a gesture somethings can be done by the current generations to reconcile errors that may still be happening Im thinking along the lines of things like Swiss banks with holding money that was taken from the Jewish community by the Nazi's.

 

[Anonymous]

In my opinion RG any generation is totally blame free for what their fathers or grandfathers did to me its like saying because you fell out of this womb its your fault that your mother was a mass murderer feeling guilt is understandable as im not too proud of some of the things carried out in the name of Britain but as I was not born at the time I refuse to take the blame for them but I do understand the point you are making that as a gesture somethings can be done by the current generations to reconcile errors that may still be happening Im thinking along the lines of things like Swiss banks with holding money that was taken from the Jewish community by the Nazi's.

Well, I'm not sure we are of differing views. I should explain better.

I do not believe any "criminal" liability should transfer from one generation to another, or to relatives, etc... However, some "civil liability" should.

As an example, when I was working at DUKE University, I knew a black man who was quite resentful of the fact that he worked in a textile factory owned and run by a family that's wealth came from their great-great-grandfather who made the money by exploiting, and often killing, his anscestors. I can certainly see his point - can't you? That family runs a large area based upon ill gotten wealth, and still control the lives of many of the descendants of their ancsestors victims through their ecomomic domination. But, given how many generations have passed, I'm not sure how such a thing could be fairly redressed.

Is it right that a father should be able to kill and steal and profit from it and then pass that wealth to his son and then that son should not be made to return it? I think he should not benefit from his fathers ill deeds. My personal feeling is that such civil liability should go back about 2 generations, to the Granfather, because usually the child and the Granfather's life spans have significant overlap. A man might undertake acts of evil to profit his son or Granson, I think it unlikely that he would do so to profit his Great-Granson however (by the time his GGS is born, he's pretty damn old!).

Anyway, I believe there needs to be redress for such wrongs, but also their has to be some kind of statute of limitations. Otherwise every piece of property on earth would be contested by dozens of parties.

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Nonskimmer]

You explained that very well RG, and I can certainly see your point. I would have to agree with it. Like you say though, a statute of limitations of some kind would need to be in place. Otherwise, we non "Native North Americans" might as well pack up and leave.

 

[evangilder]

Then what happens to companies like Bayer, Krupps, Telefunken, etc. They all used labor from the camps and are still in business. I don't think that these companies should be sold off to recompense the victims, it would serve no purpose. No amount of money can bring back the dead, or replace them. Things happened as they did and it can't be taken back. As generations move forward, they cannot be made responsible for the sins of the father.

 

[Nonskimmer]

Obviously we're into an area where principle meets practice. If companies built their success on the backs of slave labourers then they should absolutely be held responsible, at least in some fashion! But like you say evan, how do you put a monetary value on that kind of loss and suffering, beyond a token offering? Damned if I know.
One could also argue about the medical advances that came from experimentation on concentration camp inmates and POW's. We certainly can't put the genie back in the bottle.

In principle, I agree with RG here. Today's generations are not to blame for the sins of their fathers, but the fathers have left a legacy that should not be simply ignored.

 

[evangilder]

I agree that it should not be ignore, nor forgotten. But to get into compensation is crazy, because no one will ever be satisfied. There is only so much anyone can do. My grandmother was a good example of this line of thinking. My grandfather was hit and killed by a drunk driver in 1977. My grandmother was offered all kinds of legal services to take the mans house, car, earnings, you name it.

My grandmother asked how anyone can put a value on life. If she sued for 2 million, is that all her husband was worth? She knew that his conscious was going to be his own thing to have to deal with for the rest of his life. Her only judgement, burial expenses for my grandfather. Her words were; "You killed him, you should have to pay to bury him". That was the end of it.

 

[Anonymous]

Then what happens to companies like Bayer, Krupps, Telefunken, etc. They all used labor from the camps and are still in business. I don't think that these companies should be sold off to recompense the victims, it would serve no purpose. No amount of money can bring back the dead, or replace them. Things happened as they did and it can't be taken back. As generations move forward, they cannot be made responsible for the sins of the father.

So you are saying that if they benefit from the sins of their fathers, that is right and good?

Well, that is an interesting question (about Bayer, Krupps, etc...). In general, I'd say that their profit from their mis-deeds should be estimated (on the high side) and that is their liability. The issue would of course be, what was their "profit" from their wartime behavior - did any of it persist into the post-war?

Really, I think this applies more to wrongdoings of the victors than the vanquished. As an example, I think the USA and Britian needs to track down the displaced families from Diego Garcia and compensate them.

As another example, is it really right that the family of Marcos should keep billions of stolen Fillapino money? That his decendants should be forever rich and powerful based upon his thievery and killing while the Fillapino's are, for the most part, a very poor peoples?

=S=

Lunatic

 

[Nonskimmer]

Just as a slight aside, it seems that wartime atrocities are all too well remembered in the Far East.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4429809.stm