Mosquito FBVI v. Fw190 dogfight

mhuxt · Nov 12, 2013

Marsteinen said:
I have written about this and have several sources and eye witnesses as well as having met a cousin of one of the British air men. I will include it in a local war history book that I am currently working on.

Hi Marsteinen,

Sorry for the late reply - are you referring to the air battle of 15 January 1945 or to the operations of the Strike Wing in general?

Would love to know more anyway - let us know when the book is ready.

Juha · Nov 12, 2013

Kryten said:
Have been reading "A Seperate Little War" by Andrew Bird,
It chronicles the activities of the Banf Strike Wing operating against the German occupation forces in Norway during the last nine months of the war.

Of interest to this thread are the air combats between Mosquito crews and Me109/FW190 over Norway, there are several in the book with losses on both sides, of particular note is the action on 15th Jan 1945 when an air battle was fought between the Mosquito's from Banf and the FW190's of 9 staffel JG5.

it appears the Mosquitos lost two aircraft to flak during the shipping strike (one taking a direct hit from an 88 on the run in) and three to Fw190's in the following air combat.
German losses were three FW190 (2xA8 Zeuner Wnr737410 and Lehnert Wnr350183, 1xA3 Helbing Wnr 0132172) only survivors of these losses were a Mossie crew who escaped to Gibraltar via Spain, all others perished unfortunatly.

this is straight from the book and I have no independant verification, there are several other combats noted and the book is very interesting if your looking for information on Coastal Command.

Hafsten et al.: Flyalarm. Luftkrigen over Norge 1939-1945 (1991) also says that 5 Mossies and 3 Fw 190s/9./JG 5 were lost on 15 Jan 45 when 16 Mossies/Banf Wing attacked Leirvik harbour and were then attacked by 9 Fw 190s/9./JG 5. Mossies also sank one Vorpostenboot (Allied pilots call them flakships) and very badly damaged one merchant ship.

Mad Dog · Aug 7, 2020

Mick said:
Hi Gixxerman

What's a cobra move when it's at home?

Mick

It's a way for a Russian pilot to dump all forward speed and make himself into a sitting duck for any Western aircraft in the fight with an all aspect missile and a helmet-mounted sight.

BiffF15 · Aug 8, 2020

Mad Dog said:
It's a way for a Russian pilot to dump all forward speed and make himself into a sitting duck for any Western aircraft in the fight with an all aspect missile and a helmet-mounted sight.

MD,

it depends on range and closure. Missiles have minimum ranges unlike the gun. If you go for a gun shot be careful of scrubbing off to much airspeed as you will remove follow on options.
Cheers,
Biff

pbehn · Aug 8, 2020

BiffF15 said:
MD,

it depends on range and closure. Missiles have minimum ranges unlike the gun. If you go for a gun shot be careful of scrubbing off to much airspeed as you will remove follow on options.
Cheers,
Biff

Biff, what is "visual range" how far away can a pilot be expected to see another individual aircraft in clear skies without vapour trails?

BiffF15 · Aug 9, 2020

pbehn said:
Biff, what is "visual range" how far away can a pilot be expected to see another individual aircraft in clear skies without vapour trails?

Pbehn,

Another it depends. Answer lays in the 8-15nm range. F-16 nose on maybe a bit less than 8, Flanker (Su-27) or Tomcat a bit outside of 15 if more towards the beam (side view). Clouds, engine smoke, background, sun angle, aspect (how much of their aircraft they are showing).

Modern fighters have Target Designator Boxes (TD box) that has your designated target in it (as long as someone has a sensor on him). The box can be square, diamond or circle depending on what's tracking him. The above ranges work especially if he's in a TD box. You may have to bring them in (visual acquisition ranges) a mile or two if you only have a general direction and altitude to go by.

When Chuck Yeager spoke of seeing guys at 50 miles he was talking about a squadron or greater sized gaggle. Even with a TD box I could just see a KC-10 at 50 miles with great conditions and I had 2015+ vision.

It also takes training to pick out guys at distance. I still practice it when flying airliners and am usually the first guy to get tally ho.

Cheers,
Biff

Mad Dog · Aug 9, 2020

BiffF15 said:
Pbehn,

Another it depends. Answer lays in the 8-15nm range. F-16 nose on maybe a bit less than 8, Flanker (Su-27) or Tomcat a bit outside of 15 if more towards the beam (side view). Clouds, engine smoke, background, sun angle, aspect (how much of their aircraft they are showing).

Modern fighters have Target Designator Boxes (TD box) that has your designated target in it (as long as someone has a sensor on him). The box can be square, diamond or circle depending on what's tracking him. The above ranges work especially if he's in a TD box. You may have to bring them in (visual acquisition ranges) a mile or two if you only have a general direction and altitude to go by.

When Chuck Yeager spoke of seeing guys at 50 miles he was talking about a squadron or greater sized gaggle. Even with a TD box I could just see a KC-10 at 50 miles with great conditions and I had 2015+ vision.

It also takes training to pick out guys at distance. I still practice it when flying airliners and am usually the first guy to get tally ho.

Cheers,
Biff

pbehn said:
Biff, what is "visual range" how far away can a pilot be expected to see another individual aircraft in clear skies without vapour trails?

Depends on your equipment. In NATO trials, Eurofighter Typhoon pilots found that they could use their PIRATE infra-red TV to extend their visual range and identify F-22s at a longer range than the F-22s could visually acquire the Typhoons, which meant they could engage first and then position better for the subsequent close range engagements, and then use helmet-mounted sights to make missile shots when the F-22s couldn't. The F-35 has cameras to allow the pilot to "see" to further ranges above, behind and below the aircraft, improving the visual acquisition range, and a helmet-mounted sight and a cueing system (the TD boxes Biff explains above) projected onto his visor to get the pilot looking in the right direction to hit a target he actually can't see with his Eyeball MkIs. Against tech like the older MiGs with just the Eyeball MkI for visual acquisition, the stealthy F-35 is going to "see" and kill them before the MiG driver is even aware they are in the same bit of sky.

pbehn · Aug 9, 2020

BiffF15 said:
When Chuck Yeager spoke of seeing guys at 50 miles he was talking about a squadron or greater sized gaggle. Even with a TD box I could just see a KC-10 at 50 miles with great conditions and I had 2015+ vision.

It also takes training to pick out guys at distance. I still practice it when flying airliners and am usually the first guy to get tally ho.

Cheers,
Biff

I was asking with Baders "Big Wing" in mind, and how far away his 60 aircraft formation could be seen, since the LW knew where it was based and where it formed up probably between 30 and 50 miles. My uncle was in the ROC and he told me/taught me about training your eyes. If I remember correctly looking at a clear blue sky your eyes focus at about 20-50 yards away. There was a DC 3 used to drop parachutists near "his" castle, you could always hear it, and you knew approximately where it was because they always dropped in the same place, but on a cloudless day it was hard to see it, then when you did manage to focus on it you couldn't believe you had missed it, but if you looked away it was "gone" again. Then as soon as the sky divers jumped out it looked huge.

BiffF15 · Aug 9, 2020

Mad Dog said:
Depends on your equipment. In NATO trials, Eurofighter Typhoon pilots found that they could use their PIRATE infra-red TV to extend their visual range and identify F-22s at a longer range than the F-22s could visually acquire the Typhoons, which meant they could engage first and then position better for the subsequent close range engagements, and then use helmet-mounted sights to make missile shots when the F-22s couldn't. The F-35 has cameras to allow the pilot to "see" to further ranges above, behind and below the aircraft, improving the visual acquisition range, and a helmet-mounted sight and a cueing system (the TD boxes Biff explains above) projected onto his visor to get the pilot looking in the right direction to hit a target he actually can't see with his Eyeball MkIs. Against tech like the older MiGs with just the Eyeball MkI for visual acquisition, the stealthy F-35 is going to "see" and kill them before the MiG driver is even aware they are in the same bit of sky.

MD,

In your described scenario it sounds as if getting the VID (visual ID) was required prior to shooting. In combat you want to be shooting long before getting within visual range. It is true the F22 does not yet have the "helmet", the rest do (A10, F15, F16, F18, F35). It's another tool to be used, has great features but negatives as well. I did not fly with it but have had many conversations with guys who were.

Cheers,
Biff

Mosquito FBVI v. Fw190 dogfight

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mhuxt

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Juha

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