Mossie nf vs He 219 nf

Gemhorse · Jul 4, 2004

It was a pretty 'ballsy' idea in 1938 to build a wooden aircraft as an unarmed bomber capable of outflying all contempary fighters, but DH's success with the DH 91 Albatross as a wooden airliner proved this 'wood structuring' idea. After the Mosquito's service introduction and the variant developments that evolved, I think Germany was lucky that the Mosquito's single-seat version didn't make quantity production earlier...The DH 103 Hornet was probably the fastest piston-engined aircraft of it's type produced...the prototype achieving 485 mph level-flight, back in July 1944. - It was also unique in that it was the first aircraft in the World to have wood glued successfully to metal, using 'Redux Adhesive'. Apart from having Laminar-flow wings, it was also a very successful Carrier aircraft, and the Nightfighter two-seat version was developed thru the Sea Hornet's role. The Hornet stayed in service until 1956 and settled the FAA's need for an exceptional Offensive/Defensive fighter. - Our earlier discussions concerning putting Griffon engines into Mosquitos Lightnings was interesting in the light of the Hornet's engines, Merlin 130/131's or 133/134's, capable of 2,070 2,030 hp respectively...Built essentially for the PTO, they had very long range with external tanks, and carried everything except the Molins cannons and heavy bombs of the Mosquito. But it's undeniable what a successful construction technique De Havilland had evolved using wood, principally cedar ply, sandwiching a layer of Balsa wood. - They used Birch ply on the Hornet, with reinforced Alclad, but these types of designs were and probably still are, unique in the World....Put up against ALL the metal-built aircraft, performance in all aspects is astonishing in comparison, and even with jets, the He-219 still would not have had the manoevrability....

the lancaster kicks ass · Jul 5, 2004

the He-219 still would not have had the manoevrability

for what........................

Erich · Jul 5, 2004

to get out of the way of a Mossie XIX or XXX. Incidently the Uhu besides being an overly large twin engine nf was a heavy one too. Several I./NJG 1 pilots thought it best to stay at the 20,000 foot altitude and when Mossies were indicated on the rearward warning radar(when equipped), they simply would dive vertically and pull up the very last minute. This was felt that their signal on a British AI radar set would be there at once and then disappear when diving at a tremendous speed.

E ~

Lightning Guy · Jul 6, 2004

But wasn't it a very simple matter to maneuver out of the field-of-view of those early radar sets?

Erich · Jul 6, 2004

Actually the British AI was an excellent system and I personally feel although the Germans made much use of radar systems they were in no way on par equal with the Allies sets. also to it depended alot on the experience of the radar operator trying to get a sense of the "enemy" through all the visual clutter shown on the cathode tube screen, so yes the early sets as well as th later sets did have problems, usally could bring an a/c to within 800 yeds then it was up to the crewmens eyes visually to fix the target.

E ~

the lancaster kicks ass · Jul 7, 2004

you wouldn't expect a radar system to bring you any closer than 800yds anyway, like you said, you should be able to see it from there..................

Lightning Guy · Jul 7, 2004

800yds is quite aways to see on a dark night. I've heard 400yds as a more common figure. But the FOV on those early sets was very limited. If the attacking fighter got too close, the defending fighter could change heading or alitude quickly and be off the scope before the attacker had a chance to react.

Erich · Jul 7, 2004

800 yards and less. sometimes 75 yards on a coal black night. My remark is during 1944-45 there was much clutter in the air and even the US AI in the P-61 had problems with the many fires and atmospheric conditions present during late 44 through the spring of 45. Sure enough the attacker had to be quick and most likely attack from behind and below so he would not be seen and also if the prey had rear warning radar then of course the target could easily be lost in a simple hard bank towards the earth.

Lightning Guy · Jul 7, 2004

Over Korea, the F4U-5N pilots would usually hang back at about 1,000yds to see if their target was taking an evasive action before moving in. At that range, there was usually enough time to detect a targets maneuvers and counter them.

Gemhorse · Jul 7, 2004

With the introduction of the Mk.VIII AI Radar, the Nightfighting War went from strength to strength for Britain. They constantly had the German Nightfighter Arm on the defensive, electronicly, but credit to Germany, they tried hard to keep up...when they had to use single-seat day-fighters to 'night-vision' around in support of the twin-engined radar-equipped aircraft, this was an indication they were throwing all they had at it...The major Allied losses often occurred due to things like un-forecast weather , but also the Allies became predictable sometimes with their 'feint attacks' such as in the Peenmunde Raid, Mosquitos attacking other cities drawing the enemy NF's away, but they caught-on during this one, and shredded the last wave of bombers on the way out....

Schrage Muzik · Jul 17, 2004

Lightning Guy said:
I have heard that the He-219 never received the official backing that other types had. That would probably explain the lack of the newest electronics being installed. I've heard several conflicting reports on the 219 that maybe you could clarify Erich. On one hand, I have heard that a 219 shot down several Mossie bombers on one of its first sorties (something most Luftwaffe nightfighters couldn't match). On the other hand, I have heard that it was woefully underpowered for a plane of its size.

That's true, Ernst Heinkel built it out of his own pocket.

I think it could have been a better night figher, if it had been given official backing, and been allowed to prove itself.

the lancaster kicks ass · Jul 21, 2004

but to be honest how much would it have chaged the outcome of the war??

Lightning Guy · Jul 22, 2004

It wouldn't have changed the outcome. But it may have made things considerably tougher on Bomber Command.

the lancaster kicks ass · Jul 23, 2004

but surely we would have just sent out more mossies, i'm not saying this would cancel out the threat, i'm just asking if that's what the RAF would have done??

Lightning Guy · Jul 23, 2004

It may have caused the British to produce more Mossies. But most German nightfighters had little trouble changing the four-engined heavy so I'm not sure more He-219s would have had a different result from simply having more nightfighters period.

Chocks away! · Jan 30, 2005

bollocks. the 219 was a Mosquito KILLER! i don't buy any of this. Look at ot's first operational sorties. Take a look at it's armament and performance.

cheddar cheese · Jan 30, 2005

The He-219 was fantastic...

Erich · Jan 30, 2005

I have the proof as I own the Mossie kills listing from I./NJG 1. 12 mossies does not make the He 219 a Mossie killer. 10.(N)/JG 300 with Bf 109G-6/AS did better from September to November 44.

the Uhu needed work and only one gruppe took the Uhu on for ops. No BS here chocks

Gemhorse · Jan 31, 2005

The He-219 was a good looking aircraft, and had an impressive armament, but as stated before, it was grossly under-powered for such a heavy fighter....because they scored a few Mossies on their debut, it didn't make them a Mossie-killer....they were abit quicker than the Bf-110 and Ju-88 that were essentially used as the main radar-capable Luftwaffe Nightfighters, which I guess was why they clobbered a few, and quite possibly the one's they got may have been unarmed Bomber Command Pathfinders and Master-bombers; - Nightfighter Mossies were equipped with tail-warning radar as well as their frontal radar.... - But the He-219's were too few, too slow and too late to compete against an established RAF Nightfighter Force......

Just out of interest, '' shrage Musik ''wasn't a German invention....It was actually traced back to first being used during WWI by the RFC in the Sopwith Dolphins... The first German credited with using it, was Oberleutnant Schonert [...with the umlaut...can't figure-out how to do it on my PC...] who whilst serving with 4/NJG 2, experimented with a Do-17Z-10, using a 7.9mm MG, as a free-moving or a fixed-to-fire-obliquely-upward, weapon. It was not used operationally, but he then proposed a twin-upward-firing 20mm cannon to be tried on the NF version of the Do-217. He got permission to modify 3 of these, which were tested in the Spring of 1943, and Schonert, who was then serving with a Bf-110 unit, scored the first operational victory in May 1943, shooting down an RAF bomber over Berlin....
Over in the Pacific, Commander Yasuna Kozono of the 201st Naval Air Corps was nutting-out how to intercept B-17 B-24 Night-bombers, and his proposal was to have two 20mm cannon fixed to fire up, and two to fire down, both at 30 degree angle....This was first fitted to a Nakajima J1N1-C Gekko [Irving] in the Spring of 1943 [also!].., and the first recorded success was the destruction of two B-24's over Rabaul in May 1943.......

Erich · Jan 31, 2005

Schragwaffen were developed in NJG 5 not 4./NJG 2 with Paul Mahle of 5 staffel mounting the first set up in a Bf 110G-4 and receiving quite a bit of monies for his efforts

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