Mossie nf vs He 219 nf

[KraziKanuK]

Being of wood construction, how well did the German radars acquire the Mossie?


A general over view of German radars. http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/gweapons.html

Another site on radar. http://www.radarworld.org/index.html


Mossies on a night bombing mission usually climbed to 25-30k ft over the North Sea/Dutch coast and then went into a shallow dive to arrive at the target at the bombing height.

 

[Erich]

German radar was sophisticated enough to pick up the starting engine noise in Great Britian, and it was usual procedrure to have staffeln of single engine a/c roaming at 30,000 feet "waiting" for the Light night strike force mossie's to appear. the only way the 109's could catch the mossie was from a higher altitiude and a dive onto the tail.....

 

[KraziKanuK]

German radar was sophisticated enough to pick up the starting engine noise in Great Britian, and it was usual procedrure to have staffeln of single engine a/c roaming at 30,000 feet "waiting" for the Light night strike force mossie's to appear. the only way the 109's could catch the mossie was from a higher altitiude and a dive onto the tail.....

The Germans had very good sound detection equipment but how does radar pick up sound? Iirc Flak was directed by this equipment.

Erich, I meant airborne radar which is not nearly as powerful as ground radar.

 

[Gemhorse]

Well, Schonert is indicated as being in a Bf-110 unit, at the time of the first victory with the 'schragewaffen'....I discovered these details from an article in Air Enthusiast International, 1974....Interesting that the British didn't use it again in WWII, the Defiants could've wreaked some havoc during the bombing of England....although it's not really 'cricket', is it, abit like shooting someone in the back, really............

 

[Erich]

yes they had radar specifics to pick up the Mossie but it was usually intercepted by visual sight and the useage of searchlioght lanes....

Schoenert first developed the idea with a Do 217 wiwth 4 2cm weapons and then used this a/c along with Bf 110G-2's while in NJG 5. As i said one particualr staffel was very successful and that was 5./NJG 5 with one of the mechanics plating the two guns to the floor of one of the Bf 110's in the radio-ops position/rear gunners.

 

[Gemhorse]

Thanks there Erich....

It was important on both sides that when an aircraft was picked-up on radar, when then chased, it had to be identified first before action could commence....although aircraft mis-identification often still occurred, especially at night.......

Gemhorse

 

[Guchi]

In my opinion, the He 219 was a very good nightfighter. The best the Germans fielded, but it was still no match for the Mosquito (esp. the nightfighter version).

The main drawback of the uhu was that it was underpowered. Not "grossly" as has been claimed by some on this thread, but underpowered nonetheless.

Let's not forget that it was faster than the mossie, in "clean" conditions. Loaded up, and with those radar antennae, it slowed down considerably. Yet, for the NachtJagd, it was a weapon with the greatest chance of bringing down the elusive Mosquito.

It had great, well placed guns, good speed and ceiling and excellent range. The great advantage of the He 219 was the fact that due to its speed, range and efficiency, it was better able to make multiple successful engagements of British four engined heavies esp. Lancasters than any other German nightfighter. And that was Nacht Jagd's main priority. Catching the Mosquito was more of a secondary, though emotional and prestige bound issue. Being the only aircraft with the best chance of succeeding, it was tried out in the A-7 variant, but even that barely matched the performance of the British bomber.

What really amazes me, though, is what made the Mosquito such a superlative aircraft?

The engines on both aircraft are about the same hp. Infact the DB engines of the uhu claim higher hp than the Merlins.

The mossie weighs out lighter, which is also amazing considering that it was made out of wood, a material discarded in favour of metal-skin due to its weight penalties!

The wing area of the mossie is (I think) less that that of the uhu, which should even out the weight difference (I believe), yet Mosquito bombers would routinely fly at 10,000m (33,000 - 34,000 ft) while carrying a (4,000lb) cookie and easily evade a uhu staggering up to 8,000 - 9,000m (30,000ft) and struggling to keep up!

Phemenomal! I've still not figured out how....?

 

[Erich]

Baloney the Ju 88G-6 outdid the Uhu plain and simple ..........

NJGr 10 field tested the Uhu as well and portions of NJG 3 .......... they left their craft sitting on the grass fields, some with broken backs and were never used operationally. EVen NJg 1 as a whole was not impressed as only I./NJG 1 used the craft on ops. There is much more than underpowered issues that hampered the big craft as stated elsewhere in this thread, go re-read it.

the what if had there been time and the A-7 put into full scale production and inserted in the field, then yes possibly, the nose area was not large enough either to house the A-I radar dish and electronics and the cockpit layout was a joke as there was not enough room similar to the bf 110G-4

 

[johnbr]

The HE 219 was to get the Jumbo 222 for power but as we now that did not happen.The Db 603n or 603q also have worked. How is nasm doing on the he 219.

 

[Guchi]

Erich, the understanding I have (never having the opportunity of flying either aircraft) is that in the fly-off competition, between the two aircraft, the uhu came out on top. Also, according to the performance data (from a couple of sites on the web), I see that the uhu was faster with a slightly better ceiling.

Performance: Junkers Ju 88C-6
Maximum Speed: 300 mph (480km/h)
Service Ceiling: 32,480 ft. (9,900m)

Performance: Junkers Ju 88G-7b Nightfighter
Maximum Speed:
- 270 mph (435 km/h) at sea level
- 363 mph (584 km/h) at 33,465 ft. (10,200m)
- 389 mph (626 km/h) at 33,465 ft. (10,200m) with MW 50
- 402 mph (647 km/h) at 29,855 ft. (9,100m) without flame dampers
Time to 32,315 ft. (9,850m): 26.4 minutes

Performance: He 219A-7
Maximum speed: 416 mph (670km/h)
Service ceiling: 41,660 ft (12,700m)
Range: 1,243 miles (2,000km)

Performance: He 219A-7
Maximum speed: 616 km/h (knots, 385 mph)
Range: 1,540 km (nm, 960 mi)
Service ceiling: 9,300 m (30,500 ft)

Now I understand that a roomier nose section with room for four crew members and a larger "dish" antenna can definitely be considered a benefit, but it comes with its penalties of increased weight and drag. In addition, as per my information, the German "dish" radar (code named Berlin, I believe) was not ready at the time frame in consideration.

I was aware, from my own reading, that only a part of NJG 1 used the uhu operationally. I therefore find your claim, that other Nachtjagd units "rejected" the uhu interesting. I can think of many other reasons why a newer and controversial aircraft can have a long and slow gestation period; Production may be slow and there may not be enough aircraft to go around, the initial aircraft may have "teething" troubles, and may have many new and unproven features, and a controversy may give it a "bad name", just to name a few.

If you have sources that show, that the crews of the other Nachtjagd units rejected the uhu on the basis of its (inferior) performance, I'd certainly like to be enlightned.

 

[Erich]

the A-7 was never operational of the Uhu. Also the G-7b of the Ju 88 never existed. only I./NJG 1 had the UHU on ops and I have the docs to prove it, also a book will be coming out shortly thought there are twangs right now for NJGr 10.

My own work on Mossie hunters will show why the Uhu was rejected with only 12 Mossies claimed by the Uhu in NJG 1.

go back and check the archivs of these forums and you will find my responses over the years.

the Uhu was not favoured and produced in a number of test pieces with overarms. NJG 1 pulled the heavy forward 30mm's off and kept the 4 forward 2cm's as standard in most cases and this according to I./NJG 1 log books

 

[abhiginimav]

Cheddar Cheese, if u read this then jus wanted to say....I LOVE THE MOSSIE! it looks great and was a hell of a beast. Im not saying that cuz im british, becasue i think that the Halifax bomber looks UGLAY! im saying that cuz the Mossie was plain beautiful!!

 

[lesofprimus]

Indian Air Force + Royal Air force -The Best airforces in the world

That was seriously like the gayest signature ever put up here dude....

And completely inaccurate to boot....

As far as the topic goes, I have come to the same conclusions as Erich concerning the Uhu.... It was not well recieved by the majority of pilots....

And for the record, those little "stats" u posted up there from the internet dont mean squat... Most of the internet garbage is recycled misinformation, and most of the time, completely wrong...

And besides the point, stats dont prove the better aircraft, the pilot does...

 

[lesofprimus]

Alot of Ands huh??

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Gotta go with Erich and Les on this.

As for Ju-88 or Uhu, Id take a Ju-88 anyday.

 

[Guchi]

lesofprimus, you and Erich keep saying that the uhu was not well recieved by the pilots, and I have no contention with that. All I'd like to know is that how do you know? (i.e. where have you read / heard / seen it). I truly like to know, just for my own education. Because in what I've read, It says taht the uhu was liked by those who flew it although they did have initial trepidition as it was a new weapon with quite a few novelties...

 

[Erich]

will be revealed in the NJGr 10 war diaries when published and also if NJG3 veteran accts become available. I'd personally like to know with the latest A-5's and A-7's sitting on the fields why was the Ju 88G-6 preferred and the Uhu allowed to sit collecting dust and the looks of Allied escort fighters on strafing runs.

One RK winner in III./NJG 1 and I will have to confirm that or II./NJG 1 took an A-0 and flew it several missions making 2 kills but still went back to the Bf 110G-4 and some flights on the Ju 88G-6.

the lack of another pair of eyes in the cockpit was crucial during 1945, besides no rear gunner and yes it was strategic in case of Allied night fighters. Any type of deterent in 45 was necessary.......... an important case in point was the several instances of cockpit canopy failure on the ejection of pilots during emergencies, the poor crewmen were blown through the glass and killed. Also the attitude that the crew sat too far forward of the engine props, another nasty case of bail out and hopeful you wouldn't be chopped up......

dang haven't I said all this before in earlier threads ? hopefully the I./NJG 1 war diary will all come available and then the fluidness of the accts by the crews from their mouths will be understood once and for all, an none of this B.S. on the internet making the Uhu the king of German craft at night

 

[Udet]

Before becoming a member, also i was used to read the He 219 "Uhu" made a fearsome night fighter. I can find comments in that direction in about every account i have had the chance of reading.

But that is one the reasons i enjoy discussing and reading here; after Erich, is that i learned further about the Uhu and its potential.

We know the kind of source Erich is, so i am grateful i learned from someone like him that the "generally accepted" accounts regarding the performance of the Uhu are flat wrong. Thanks mate!

 

[Denniss]

Why was the A-7 not operational ? It is thought to be in production from 12/1944 onwards.
How many A-5 have really been built except from prototypes ?

 

[Erich]

A-5's and A-7's were committed to I./NJG 1 but did not fly on ops but left on the fields. A-0's and A-2's especially are listed in loss reports up through wars end in spring of 45. why not A-5 or A-7's ?

this thing is getting stretched to the limits