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Forget the numbers, look at its operational limitations. A marvelous machine when all worked well and with a little luck that was for about 20 hours....Considering the tactical and strategical scenario (inferiority 1:10 at best, lack of fuel, no more radar warning service etc.) and that her best estimated kill ratio was in the range of 2.5:1 (over 700 claimed kills, about 350-400 probably real vs 150 losses including those during landing approach) it looks that the 262 in general is way UNDER rated...
(comment from somebody -me- who used to think the 262 was overrated before analyzing numbers and historical scenario...)
I never claimed that any extra wait wouldn't have ay effect on the Zero's handling or performance Adler, I just said that what'ever effect it had would mean nothing considering the already huge advantage in agility the a/c enjoyed. The full metal elevators would also help greatly reduce the huge control forces at high speeds.
Forget the numbers, look at its operational limitations. A marvelous machine when all worked well and with a little luck that was for about 20 hours....
I wouldn't say it was over rated or under rated, just that it's impact was limited....
I never claimed that any extra wait wouldn't have ay effect on the Zero's handling or performance Adler, I just said that what'ever effect it had would mean nothing considering the already huge advantage in agility the a/c enjoyed. The full metal elevators would also help greatly reduce the huge control forces at high speeds.
And I am not going on the offensive here Adler, I just want to make clear what I didn't say.
Drgondog,
As to your question regarding wether any German a/c lost weight, well there's the FW-190 for example. The Dora-9 weighes less than the A-8 and -9. Considering the extra size and fuel capacity the Ta-152 is also very light. The Russian La-7 also weighed less than its predecessor the La-5.
As for the P-51H being lighter than its predecessor, well as you can see there's nothing unusual about that.
Okay you keep thinking that....
Soren - So, one or two examples out of how many?
and wouldn't you think that the D-9 comparison should be made to a model like the A6 or A7 as the A8 was not designed to fight Allied Fighters and so heavily armored that it is difficult to conceive the D-9 as an evolution? If there was a D-9 that kept the armor and armament of the A8 but underwent a weight reduction program you would have a point.
As to the Ta152, do you consider that airframe a 'weight reduction' program on the Fw190 or even Fw190D? interesting.
As to metal control surfaces on a Zero being the answer to 'upweighting' -boosting controls might be a better plan - depending on how much weight you added to try to make it more competitive in speed and survivability?
The Zero's manueverability in the horizontal was just fine with faric control surfaces. If the Japanese had decided that was an answer to the performance differential it was a simple field mod to change it. Terminal velocity in a dive was well below any of its adversaries and didn't even need metal elevators to improve stick force response in a dive so why do it?
I doubt if the Zero's aerodynamics were solid enough for major upscaling of engine and structure without losing what made it great in the first place
There's no need to be rude Adler....
The Ta-152H has a greater fuel capacity, wing-area, longer span lenght and more new gadgets than the FW-190D, and yet its only 450 - 500 kg heavier - thats quite an achievement.
As to the Zero and its maneuverability at high speed, well changing the fabric covered elevators with fully metal ones wouldn't have been as easy as you make it sound. The production line would be interrupted for some time. Besides why do it when you got a new fighter under development ?
And as to the terminal velocity of the Zero, well that depends of density and drag, and as you know with an increase in mass comes and increase in density. So that extra weight added to the Zero will actually benefit it in some ways.
I am not being rude Soren...
I am mearly using the same type of speech that you use when you disagree with someone.
I think I mentioned the thinner wing of the 51H in a prior post -Bill,
The Zero's dive speed limit was heightened pr. every new version. And as to your theory about it being the wing causing the low dive speed limit, well thats actually partly true, adding a thicker metal skin layer to the wing was one of the ways the Japanese heightened the dive speed limit of the a/c. Also remember that the wing of the Zero was made smaller from the A6M5 and onwards, something which increased the density and decreased the drag of the a/c - this was one of the prime contributers to the increased dive speed limit.
As to the Ta-152 being a new design, well yes it was, not by a whole lot though - it was basically just an enhanced design of the FW-190.
The P-51H had a quicker dive speed limit than the P-51D because of its different wing Bill, thats it - the P-51H's wing was esp. thinner at the root.
I haven't seen the figures on the smaller wing/aspect ratio but that effect could result in increased induced drag and I would be interested in the attributes you think introduced Mcrit for the Zero?
I think I mentioned the thinner wing of the 51H in a prior post -Bill,
The Zero's dive speed limit was heightened pr. every new version. And as to your theory about it being the wing causing the low dive speed limit, well thats actually partly true, adding a thicker metal skin layer to the wing was one of the ways the Japanese heightened the dive speed limit of the a/c. Also remember that the wing of the Zero was made smaller from the A6M5 and onwards, something which increased the density and decreased the drag of the a/c - this was one of the prime contributers to the increased dive speed limit.
As to the Ta-152 being a new design, well yes it was, not by a whole lot though - it was basically just an enhanced design of the FW-190.
The P-51H had a quicker dive speed limit than the P-51D because of its different wing Bill, thats it - the P-51H's wing was esp. thinner at the root.