Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?

[FLYBOYJ]

Considering the tactical and strategical scenario (inferiority 1:10 at best, lack of fuel, no more radar warning service etc.) and that her best estimated kill ratio was in the range of 2.5:1 (over 700 claimed kills, about 350-400 probably real vs 150 losses including those during landing approach) it looks that the 262 in general is way UNDER rated...

(comment from somebody -me- who used to think the 262 was overrated before analyzing numbers and historical scenario...)

Forget the numbers, look at its operational limitations. A marvelous machine when all worked well and with a little luck that was for about 20 hours....

I wouldn't say it was over rated or under rated, just that it's impact was limited....

 

[Parmigiano]

I fully agree that the impact was limited, but the machine itself cannot be praised too much, in spite of the well known engine youth problems.

-There were limits of the aircraft itself :engine life, engine reliability, slow throttle response, even poor construction (although this latter could reasonably be blamed to the scenario rather than to the machine)

-There were difficulties independent by the quality/reliability/performance of the aircraft, like fuel shortage, no more radar to address the interception, overwhelming numbers.

But the fact is:

1) with all her operational limitations (engine fragility, construction below normal German standars etc.) and the very difficult environment the results (numbers) of the Me262 are excellent, unattainable by any other aircraft operating in the same scenario (take 300 Dora, P51, Ta152, Spit etc. with the same qty of available fuel in place of the circa 300 Me262: even if they were MUCH more reliable, it is unlikely they could have scored the same)

And the 'what if' could be:

2) Whitout the aircraft operational limitations the results COULD HAVE been even better. This does not change point 1

3) In a less desperate scenario (proper radar coverage, fuel available, better numerical proportion) again the results COULD HAVE been even better.
But also this does not change point 1

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

I never claimed that any extra wait wouldn't have ay effect on the Zero's handling or performance Adler, I just said that what'ever effect it had would mean nothing considering the already huge advantage in agility the a/c enjoyed. The full metal elevators would also help greatly reduce the huge control forces at high speeds.

Okay you keep thinking that....

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Forget the numbers, look at its operational limitations. A marvelous machine when all worked well and with a little luck that was for about 20 hours....

I wouldn't say it was over rated or under rated, just that it's impact was limited....

I would not consider the Me 262 overated or underated as you said. She was ahead of her time but as with all early jets she had great limitations as well as with the limited engine TBOs.

 

[Catch22]

As much as I hate to say it, I have to vote for the P-51. I really do love that airplane, but it was not a whole lot better (performance wise) than a lot of other planes.

 

[drgondog]

I never claimed that any extra wait wouldn't have ay effect on the Zero's handling or performance Adler, I just said that what'ever effect it had would mean nothing considering the already huge advantage in agility the a/c enjoyed. The full metal elevators would also help greatly reduce the huge control forces at high speeds.

And I am not going on the offensive here Adler, I just want to make clear what I didn't say.

Drgondog,

As to your question regarding wether any German a/c lost weight, well there's the FW-190 for example. The Dora-9 weighes less than the A-8 and -9. Considering the extra size and fuel capacity the Ta-152 is also very light. The Russian La-7 also weighed less than its predecessor the La-5.

As for the P-51H being lighter than its predecessor, well as you can see there's nothing unusual about that.

Soren - So, one or two examples out of how many?

and wouldn't you think that the D-9 comparison should be made to a model like the A6 or A7 as the A8 was not designed to fight Allied Fighters and so heavily armored that it is difficult to conceive the D-9 as an evolution? If there was a D-9 that kept the armor and armament of the A8 but underwent a weight reduction program you would have a point.

As to the Ta152, do you consider that airframe a 'weight reduction' program on the Fw190 or even Fw190D? interesting.

As to metal control surfaces on a Zero being the answer to 'upweighting' -boosting controls might be a better plan - depending on how much weight you added to try to make it more competitive in speed and survivability?

The Zero's manueverability in the horizontal was just fine with faric control surfaces. If the Japanese had decided that was an answer to the performance differential it was a simple field mod to change it. Terminal velocity in a dive was well below any of its adversaries and didn't even need metal elevators to improve stick force response in a dive so why do it?

I doubt if the Zero's aerodynamics were solid enough for major upscaling of engine and structure without losing what made it great in the first place

 

[Soren]

Okay you keep thinking that....

There's no need to be rude Adler....

 

[Soren]

Soren - So, one or two examples out of how many?

and wouldn't you think that the D-9 comparison should be made to a model like the A6 or A7 as the A8 was not designed to fight Allied Fighters and so heavily armored that it is difficult to conceive the D-9 as an evolution? If there was a D-9 that kept the armor and armament of the A8 but underwent a weight reduction program you would have a point.

As to the Ta152, do you consider that airframe a 'weight reduction' program on the Fw190 or even Fw190D? interesting.

As to metal control surfaces on a Zero being the answer to 'upweighting' -boosting controls might be a better plan - depending on how much weight you added to try to make it more competitive in speed and survivability?

The Zero's manueverability in the horizontal was just fine with faric control surfaces. If the Japanese had decided that was an answer to the performance differential it was a simple field mod to change it. Terminal velocity in a dive was well below any of its adversaries and didn't even need metal elevators to improve stick force response in a dive so why do it?

I doubt if the Zero's aerodynamics were solid enough for major upscaling of engine and structure without losing what made it great in the first place

The Ta-152H has a greater fuel capacity, wing-area, longer span lenght and more new gadgets than the FW-190D, and yet its only 450 - 500 kg heavier - thats quite an achievement.

As to the Zero and its maneuverability at high speed, well changing the fabric covered elevators with fully metal ones wouldn't have been as easy as you make it sound. The production line would be interrupted for some time. Besides why do it when you got a new fighter under development ?

And as to the terminal velocity of the Zero, well that depends of density and drag, and as you know with an increase in mass comes and increase in density. So that extra weight added to the Zero will actually benefit it in some ways.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

There's no need to be rude Adler....

I am not being rude Soren...

I am mearly using the same type of speech that you use when you disagree with someone.

 

[drgondog]

The Ta-152H has a greater fuel capacity, wing-area, longer span lenght and more new gadgets than the FW-190D, and yet its only 450 - 500 kg heavier - thats quite an achievement.

As to the Zero and its maneuverability at high speed, well changing the fabric covered elevators with fully metal ones wouldn't have been as easy as you make it sound. The production line would be interrupted for some time. Besides why do it when you got a new fighter under development ?

And as to the terminal velocity of the Zero, well that depends of density and drag, and as you know with an increase in mass comes and increase in density. So that extra weight added to the Zero will actually benefit it in some ways.

Soren, wouldn't you describe the Ta152 as a new design with all those fundamental changes? and if not, wouldn't you consider those changes as adding weight to its preceeding model - rather than weight reduction? You can't have it both ways.

On the metal elevators, the changes made for the 51 were in the form of Field installable kits. The US engineers weren't more clever than Japanese in this concept. As to 'why' go back and look at your posts - you suggested changing to metal control surfaces. I rebutted that boost might be a better choice if you started adding weight and power.

As to adding weight to improve dive? Well, the lighter 51H had the same terminal velocity (maybe slightly higher with thinner wing/same area as the the B/C/D so the aerodynamics/drag had more influence than weight (or mass) in the same basic airframe.

I suspect (without facts- I don't have data) that the Zero wing design had more influence on dive terminal velocity than its mass... but if you think differently that's ok with me. HP certainly would have aided acceleration in the dive given more proportional HP gain than weight gain. If you have contrary data I would be interested.

Regards,

Bill

 

[Soren]

Bill,

The Zero's dive speed limit was heightened pr. every new version. And as to your theory about it being the wing causing the low dive speed limit, well thats actually partly true, adding a thicker metal skin layer to the wing was one of the ways the Japanese heightened the dive speed limit of the a/c. Also remember that the wing of the Zero was made smaller from the A6M5 and onwards, something which increased the density and decreased the drag of the a/c - this was one of the prime contributers to the increased dive speed limit.

As to the Ta-152 being a new design, well yes it was, not by a whole lot though - it was basically just an enhanced design of the FW-190.

The P-51H had a quicker dive speed limit than the P-51D because of its different wing Bill, thats it - the P-51H's wing was esp. thinner at the root.

 

[Soren]

I am not being rude Soren...

I am mearly using the same type of speech that you use when you disagree with someone.

No Adler, I only use such type of speech if the person I'm talking to is completely wrong.

If I merely disagree with someone I'll debate my way through or agree to disagree.

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

Keep on thinking that...



Lighten up Soren, seriously.

 

[drgondog]

Bill,

The Zero's dive speed limit was heightened pr. every new version. And as to your theory about it being the wing causing the low dive speed limit, well thats actually partly true, adding a thicker metal skin layer to the wing was one of the ways the Japanese heightened the dive speed limit of the a/c. Also remember that the wing of the Zero was made smaller from the A6M5 and onwards, something which increased the density and decreased the drag of the a/c - this was one of the prime contributers to the increased dive speed limit.

As to the Ta-152 being a new design, well yes it was, not by a whole lot though - it was basically just an enhanced design of the FW-190.

The P-51H had a quicker dive speed limit than the P-51D because of its different wing Bill, thats it - the P-51H's wing was esp. thinner at the root.

I think I mentioned the thinner wing of the 51H in a prior post -

I haven't seen the figures on the smaller wing/aspect ratio but that effect could result in increased induced drag and I would be interested in the attributes you think introduced Mcrit for the Zero?

 

[Soren]

I haven't seen the figures on the smaller wing/aspect ratio but that effect could result in increased induced drag and I would be interested in the attributes you think introduced Mcrit for the Zero?

Bill, with a decrease in lift comes a decrease in drag, and the higher weight coupled now with a smaller overall surface area gave the a/c a higher density = higher terminal velocity dive speed limit. The slightly lower AR only slightly reduced the L/D ratio of the wing.

 

[drgondog]

Bill,

The Zero's dive speed limit was heightened pr. every new version. And as to your theory about it being the wing causing the low dive speed limit, well thats actually partly true, adding a thicker metal skin layer to the wing was one of the ways the Japanese heightened the dive speed limit of the a/c. Also remember that the wing of the Zero was made smaller from the A6M5 and onwards, something which increased the density and decreased the drag of the a/c - this was one of the prime contributers to the increased dive speed limit.

As to the Ta-152 being a new design, well yes it was, not by a whole lot though - it was basically just an enhanced design of the FW-190.

The P-51H had a quicker dive speed limit than the P-51D because of its different wing Bill, thats it - the P-51H's wing was esp. thinner at the root.

I think I mentioned the thinner wing of the 51H in a prior post -

I haven't seen the figures on the smaller wing/aspect ratio but that effect could result in increased induced drag and I would be interested in the attributes you think introduced Mcrit for the Zero?

 

[Soren]

 

[pedigi96]

I'm late to this party, but have not looked at this site since Dec 2006...sorry.

I know the choices of overrated WWII combat aircraft did not include this, but I would suggest the He-219 as the most overrated. Despite its stellar reputation and name as a "Mosquito killer", Erich Brown in his "Wings of the Luftwaffe" described the He-219 as underpowered with high wing loading and limited maneuverability and a plane he would not want to try to land more than once on one engine. Was its combat record as good as described in many WWII aviation books?

Kenneth

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Do you also realize that Eric Brown was EXTREMELY biased?!?!?!?!

 

[pedigi96]

Flyboy-

No, I am not aware of Eric Brown's bias. I guess I'm not in the know as many of you are.

Could you elaborate in more detail about Brown's bias?

Thanks,
Kenneth