Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?

[Kevin J]

Unless you provide some support for that I consider it a creation from your own head to support your present world view. Please bear in mind that speaking German does make someone politically "German" since Germany only united in the 1870s.

My father's family was Anglo-Italian, living in the UK at the time of WW2, so yes its from my head, nobody wants to fight kith and kin. The UK had to beware of American sensibilities and also of keeping its allies on board.

 

[KiwiBiggles]

You do realize that proportionately more Dutch people actively assisted the German invaders("the Netherlands saw one of the highest levels of collaboration during the Holocaust of any occupied country" Netherlands in World War II) than did those in France? And Vidkun Quisling gave his name to a category of traitor? All of the occupied countries had volunteers, especially from extreme right-wing organizations, but also from the police helping the nazis.

Irrelevant. The Dutch government was an Ally, as were the Norwegians. The French government (Vichy) was part of the Axis, and actively fought against the Allies at a state level. Technically, the Free French under de Gaulle were rebels.

 

[GrauGeist]

They certainly weren't allowed to destroy Dutch or Norwegian assets, they were definitely on our side. As for the French, they had joined the enemy. The issue at stake was continuing American support. At that time, America was a third German, a third Irish, 10% British and the rest came from all over Europe, so the RAF had to attempt precision bombing, even at night, and drop their bombs if they couldn't hit their targets accurately. A lot of German cows got killed.

Not sure where you're going with all that, but the Allies certainly did bomb Holland, particularly the shipyards at Rotterdam, as well as fighter sweeps later in the war (which entailed extensive strafing of the railyards and infrastructure).

Norway was also the focus of not only bombing, but Commando raids by the British. It was also the FAA of the Royal Navy's "Operation Judgement", conducted on 4 May 1945, that was the last bombing raid of the European theater.

 

[pbehn]

My father's family was Anglo-Italian, living in the UK at the time of WW2, so yes its from my head, nobody wants to fight kith and kin. The UK had to beware of American sensibilities and also of keeping its allies on board.

Technically (whatever that means) The residents of the UK are referred to as Anglo Saxons, so their conflict with Germany was purely a Germanic conflict. When every nation has claimed the people of the USA as their "own" then the USA has a population of between two and three billion.

 

[wuzak]

Irrelevant. The Dutch government was an Ally, as were the Norwegians. The French government (Vichy) was part of the Axis, and actively fought against the Allies at a state level. Technically, the Free French under de Gaulle were rebels.

Vichy France was not all of France.

 

[Navalwarrior]

A very good post, I stil have a nitpic, though:



The P-51A have had better altitude performance due to the engine's impeller spinning faster - max 28800 rpm vs. 26400 rpm at earlier 1-stage V-1710s at fighters. That meant the air is more compressed = more boost at choosen altitude = more power. A small price to pay for this was a slight loss of low altitude performance.
IIRC both P-51 and P-51A have had the same prop, or at least of same diameter.

Resp:

There are too many sites that list incorrect data, but the 'A' variant (P-51A), although produced along side the A-36A (the production of the A-36A began a little earlier) was the only Allison engine variant to have the larger propeller. (I will continue to ck sources and update if needed).

As an example, you will see photos of a two tone upper surface camouflage with US roundels with red dot centers. These are Mustang MkI slated for the British. This was done since the US was neutral when the British made the order. British roundels were applied once they reached England (there is a color photo of both camouflaged and solid green Mustangs, which are for the British and USAAF, respectively). The dead giveaway is the USAAF did not paint insignias on both wing tops (yes, ETO P-47s often had one on each wing's undersurface.

In 1943 Africa, the British requested the use of an Allison engine Mustang due to its longer range over its Spitfire and Hurricane. At the time, only an A-36A was available, so a dive bomber was fitted with cameras (funny!). Apparently, the British used it so long, that they painted roundels on it (cannot verify this).

The first Mustang to be fitted with a Malcolm Hood was an Allison engine variant, in Sept 1943 (Gen H. Arnold viewed it on his trip to 8th AF. For some reason, the RAF would not fit Photo-Recon Mustangs with the hoods, although the USAAF put them on nearly all Mustangs except the dive bomber version (A-36A). There may be exceptions, but if done, it would be after their arrival in Northern Italy.

Note that when A-36As escorted B-26s to Italy in 1943, Gen Doolittle took notice. The Mustang was a distance maker. Who ever thought of using the A-36A as an escort fighter (likely a dive bomber pilot) should have been promoted (my personal view)!

When the dive bomber groups began to be retro-equipped with P-40s due to combat/accident losses, the pilots drew straws to see who would keep the A-36As; the pilots liked them so much. When P-47s arrived, no one wanted to use them either, over the tried and true A-36A.

RAF and USAAF Mustangs did the 'picture taking' of Normandy prior to the and post invasion.

An advantage of Allison engined Mustangs in the CBI, is that they could get spare engines since most Groups used the P-40 or the P-38 as late as 1944. Also, even though these Mustangs were not rated to carry two 1,000 lb bombs, the 1st ACG did so with success. I believe that this was because 1,000 pounders were used by the B-25 Groups and getting special bombs (or engines over the Hump was not the way to keep up operations). The 1,000 lb bombs seemed to always be available and the Mustangs still used less runway than P-47s.

 

[KiwiBiggles]

Vichy France was not all of France.

No, the non-Vichy part was occupied by Germany. There was no part of France which was part of the Allies.

 

[pbehn]

No, the non-Vichy part was occupied by Germany. There was no part of France which was part of the Allies.

In territory that is correct, but in terms of the people living there not correct.

 

[Navalwarrior]

Resp:

There are too many sites that list incorrect data, but the 'A' variant (P-51A), although produced along side the A-36A (the production of the A-36A began a little earlier) was the only Allison engine variant to have the larger propeller. (I will continue to ck sources and update if needed).

As an example, you will see photos of a two tone upper surface camouflage with US roundels with red dot centers. These are Mustang MkI slated for the British. This was done since the US was neutral when the British made the order. British roundels were applied once they reached England (there is a color photo of both camouflaged and solid green Mustangs, which are for the British and USAAF, respectively). The dead giveaway is the USAAF did not paint insignias on both wing tops (yes, ETO P-47s often had one on each wing's undersurface.

In 1943 Africa, the British requested the use of an Allison engine Mustang due to its longer range over its Spitfire and Hurricane. At the time, only an A-36A was available, so a dive bomber was fitted with cameras (funny!). Apparently, the British used it so long, that they painted roundels on it (cannot verify this).

The first Mustang to be fitted with a Malcolm Hood was an Allison engine variant, in Sept 1943 (Gen H. Arnold viewed it on his trip to 8th AF. For some reason, the RAF would not fit Photo-Recon Mustangs with the hoods, although the USAAF put them on nearly all Mustangs except the dive bomber version (A-36A). There may be exceptions, but if done, it would be after their arrival in Northern Italy.

Note that when A-36As escorted B-26s to Italy in 1943, Gen Doolittle took notice. The Mustang was a distance maker. Who ever thought of using the A-36A as an escort fighter (likely a dive bomber pilot) should have been promoted (my personal view)!

When the dive bomber groups began to be retro-equipped with P-40s due to combat/accident losses, the pilots drew straws to see who would keep the A-36As; the pilots liked them so much. When P-47s arrived, no one wanted to use them either, over the tried and true A-36A.

RAF and USAAF Mustangs did the 'picture taking' of Normandy prior to the and post invasion.

An advantage of Allison engined Mustangs in the CBI, is that they could get spare engines since most Groups used the P-40 or the P-38 as late as 1944. Also, even though these Mustangs were not rated to carry two 1,000 lb bombs, the 1st ACG did so with success. I believe that this was because 1,000 pounders were used by the B-25 Groups and getting special bombs (or engines over the Hump was not the way to keep up operations). The 1,000 lb bombs seemed to always be available and the Mustangs still used less runway than P-47s.

Source of larger diameter propeller for P-51A:
- The Encyclopedia do Aircraft of World War II, by General Editor: Paul Eden, Amber Books, 2017, page 403 under NA-99. Also, I want to say that Martyn Chorlton's book 'Allison Engined P-51 Mustangs' also mentions this point, although I cannot find the book at the moment.

 

[wuzak]

No, the non-Vichy part was occupied by Germany. There was no part of France which was part of the Allies.

The people of occupied France were not enemies of the Allies.

 

[GrauGeist]

No, the non-Vichy part was occupied by Germany. There was no part of France which was part of the Allies.

There were a large number of French Partisans that would disagree with this...

 

[KiwiBiggles]

The people of occupied France were not enemies of the Allies.

So why did they fight against the Allies? There were non-trivial campaigns waged by Vichy in Syria, North Africa and Madagascar. Allied troops died fighting against the French. Most French didn't join the resistance until after the liberation of Paris.

 

[wuzak]

But Vichy France was not occupied France.

Northern France was occupied by Germany, while Vichy France consisted southern France and the colonies.

After attacks on Vichy France by the Allies, Germany occupied the remainder of France itself.

 

[swampyankee]

So why did they fight against the Allies? There were non-trivial campaigns waged by Vichy in Syria, North Africa and Madagascar. Allied troops died fighting against the French. Most French didn't join the resistance until after the liberation of Paris.

One reason is that Vichy was still sovereign and resisted invasion of its territories, both by the Allies and by the Japanese.

Resistance movements in all the occupied countries of western Europe were very much minorities, frequently groups that had been on the political fringes pre-war, and even groups that had been actively persecuted by the pre-war governments.
The German occupiers were also vicious, with a habit of rounding up and killing large numbers of people, more or less at random, for any kind of anti-German act.

 

[Kevin J]

But Vichy France was not occupied France.

Northern France was occupied by Germany, while Vichy France consisted southern France and the colonies.

After attacks on Vichy France by the Allies, Germany occupied the remainder of France itself.

Vichy administered all of France including the German occupied territories that faced the Atlantic.

 

[Navalwarrior]

So impatient. I told y'all I was posting from work. I'm at home now with the book in my hand. This is the book.

What you posted is a partial list. Total production of this plane was 1720 units not counting prototypes.

England ordered 320 NA 73 and 300 NA 83 (all as Mk I), and 92 NA-91 (as Mk 1A) and 50 NA 99 (as Mk II) for a total of 762 Allison Engined P-51s.
The US ordered 458 P-51s of various subtypes (see below) plus the 500 A-36 for a total of 958 Allison Engined P-51s.

Total production was therefore 1720 not counting 3 prototypes. It was not clear to me initially if the 86 recon versions were made originally for that purpose (this is why I originally thought total production run was ~1800). But I checked and read it a bit more carefully - they were apparently diverted from British orders, converted into recon planes and used in Tunisia and from England including over D-Day. These are the production numbers:

320 x Mk I (NA-73) Nov 41 to May 42. Serial Nos AG345 to AG664
200 x Mk I (NA-83) Apr to Aug 42. Serial Nos AL 958 to AM257
100 x Mk I (NA-83) Jul to Aug 42. Serial Nos AP164 to AP 263
92 x Mk IA (NA-91) Sept 42 to Jan 43 Serial Nos FD438 to FD 567
148 x P-51 (NA-91) Serial Nos 41-37320 to 41-37469
500 x A-36 (NA-97) Serial Nos 42-83663 to 42-84162
100 x P-51A-1 (NA -99) Serial Nos 43-6003 to 43-6102
55 x P-51A-5 (NA-99) Serial Nos 43-6103 to 43-6157
155 x P-51A-10 (NA-99) Serial Nos 43-6158 to 43-6312

Of the English models 51 were converted to F-6A and 35 converted to F-6B recon planes.

Allison Engined Mustangs in Combat
According to the book, page 42, the A-36 arrived at operational units (27th and 86th FBG) in March 1943 but did not fly a combat mission until 6 June 1943 against Pantelleria and Lampedusa. It may be possible however that some of the recon (F-6) birds may have been used before that.

Michael T Russo was an ace flying A-36s with the 16th Bomb Squadron in Italy. Apparently he was the only Ace with the type which is surprising considering ~1,600 of them were fairly heavily engaged over a long period of time. Does not compare well with say, the P-40F or the P-40K. Or the say, Yak-7.

The first unit that got mauled in Burma was the 311 FB group operating out of Kyurmitola India. They had 40 A-36s plus some P-51As. November 25 8 Mustangs flew escort to B-25s to Mingaladon Iarfield in Rangoon. They were bounced by four Ki-43s from the 64th Sentai. Two Mustangs were shot down for no claims. Shortly after another escort mission for B-24s was jumped again by 64th Sentai Ki-43s, losing 4 Mustangs including the 311 FG commanding officer, Colonel Harry Melton. One Ki-43 was shot down and one made a forced landing.

On Dec 1 1943 311 FBG escorted Liberators to Rangoon, got jumped again losing 1 P-51.

On Feb 14, 1944 13 P-51As were escorting B-25s to a raid at Zaundiaing. While strafing the target they were bounced by Ki-43s from the 50th Sentai. Two P-51s were lost and 3 damaged. No Japanese losses are mentioned.

They mention two more combats in March and April 1944 in which "several" Ki-43s of 50th Sentai were shot down, and one on March 16 where 50th Sentai Ki-43s "bounced" P-51As on takeoff and one was shot down with the pilot badly burned.

Like I said, a fairly dismal air to air combat record. You'll be happy to know though the book says several times that the P-51A was way better than the P-40 and even claims it was better in combat than the P-38. Better no doubt in many ways except in the sense of shooting down enemy aircraft while not getting shot down...

It does seem like it was a good dive bomber though and that changes my understanding of the DAF a bit, the existence of a good high speed dive bomber on the Allied side definitely puts an interesting twist on the whole war in that area. The USAAF had their own Stuka and it went 400 mph and had a ~1200 mile range.

S

Response:
It does sound like the Allison engine Mustang had a dismal air to air combat record, but how many really served in or as a fighter? In Africa/MTO the Mustangs used by the Americans were F-6As and A-36As, neither of them assigned (or trained?) for air-to-air interception. Their job was photo-recon and dive bombing, respectively. Russo, the sole A-36A 'ace' performed his kills . . solely thru opportunity, rather than as his mission. So, to me the lack of air-to-air engagements is no surprise to me.

ETO: The RAF dedicated their Mustang MkI, MkIA and MKIIs to Photo-recon, allowing strafing of targets of opportunity on egress. The Americans did the same with their F-6Bs flying from England, although stressed the photo collection as their sole duty. So air-to-air kills were few for these Allison Mustangs.

Burma: Colonels Cochran and Alison of the 1st Air Commando Group (supporting Gen Windgate's ground forces) should have known the air threat since both had extensive air-to-air combat experience (Alison having been trained by Gen Chenault as a Flying Tiger Ace). However, their fighter compliment was only 30 P-51As, and those P-51s (rumor has it that they only had one A-36A, but were not for dive bombing) were usually loaded with 2 1,000 lb bombs (not rated for the poundage, but carried just the same) for destroying Japanese forces opposed to Windgate's guerrilla tactics. On at least 3 separate occasions, forward airstrips were cut out of the jungle, usually taking several days to clear trees and grade a runway, enabled P-51As of the 1st ACG to fly ground strikes from. In this role, (I am just thinking out load!!) if the makeshift airfields could only handle a small number of aircraft, and if those aircraft were primarily used for destroying ground forces w bombs, maybe air-to-air cover was lacking! However, their record for assisting Gen Windgate's forces was considered very successful due to their ability to destroy Japanese ground forces; exactly what they were trying to accomplish. Once again, these fighters were not primarily employed as fighters. These P-51s were ideal for the task as they required little runway to get airborne from these makeshift runways.

However, the escort missions by other Groups/Squadrons in the CBI does reveal weaknesses either of aircraft, pilots and/or tactics and training. What did Chenault teach? Never turn with a Zero, always attack from above and use your top speed to dive away (breaking off the engagement)! Was the fighter escort too low or too close to the bombers to engage effectively? I think so, but that is only a guess.
Navalwarrior

 

[Kevin J]

Response:
It does sound like the Allison engine Mustang had a dismal air to air combat record, but how many really served in or as a fighter? In Africa/MTO the Mustangs used by the Americans were F-6As and A-36As, neither of them assigned (or trained?) for air-to-air interception. Their job was photo-recon and dive bombing, respectively. Russo, the sole A-36A 'ace' performed his kills . . solely thru opportunity, rather than as his mission. So, to me the lack of air-to-air engagements is no surprise to me.

ETO: The RAF dedicated their Mustang MkI, MkIA and MKIIs to Photo-recon, allowing strafing of targets of opportunity on egress. The Americans did the same with their F-6Bs flying from England, although stressed the photo collection as their sole duty. So air-to-air kills were few for these Allison Mustangs.

Burma: Colonels Cochran and Alison of the 1st Air Commando Group (supporting Gen Windgate's ground forces) should have known the air threat since both had extensive air-to-air combat experience (Alison having been trained by Gen Chenault as a Flying Tiger Ace). However, their fighter compliment was only 30 P-51As, and those P-51s (rumor has it that they only had one A-36A, but were not for dive bombing) were usually loaded with 2 1,000 lb bombs (not rated for the poundage, but carried just the same) for destroying Japanese forces opposed to Windgate's guerrilla tactics. On at least 3 separate occasions, forward airstrips were cut out of the jungle, usually taking several days to clear trees and grade a runway, enabled P-51As of the 1st ACG to fly ground strikes from. In this role, (I am just thinking out load!!) if the makeshift airfields could only handle a small number of aircraft, and if those aircraft were primarily used for destroying ground forces w bombs, maybe air-to-air cover was lacking! However, their record for assisting Gen Windgate's forces was considered very successful due to their ability to destroy Japanese ground forces; exactly what they were trying to accomplish. Once again, these fighters were not primarily employed as fighters. These P-51s were ideal for the task as they required little runway to get airborne from these makeshift runways.

However, the escort missions by other Groups/Squadrons in the CBI does reveal weaknesses either of aircraft, pilots and/or tactics and training. What did Chenault teach? Never turn with a Zero, always attack from above and use your top speed to dive away (breaking off the engagement)! Was the fighter escort too low or too close to the bombers to engage effectively? I think so, but that is only a guess.
Navalwarrior

IIRC the Allison powered Mustang was designed as a fast long range low altitude recon fighter as opposed to an interceptor / escort / air superiority fighter. View over the nose for deflection shooting was bad, rear view was bad. the ailerons needed re-sizing etc. It took a bit of re-development to turn it into the war winning Merlin powered Mustang. I'm surprised any of the original Allison powered Mustangs shot down anything at all. In the CBI, they kept the Warhawks for the interceptor / air superiority role and used their Allison powered Mustangs for counter air ops.

 

[Milosh]

It is a wonder any fighter shot down an e/a with the view over the nose. Razor back fighters all had bad rear view.

 

[Kevin J]

It is a wonder any fighter shot down an e/a with the view over the nose. Razor back fighters all had bad rear view.

The Hurricane had quite a good view over the nose if you take a close view and they did of course shoot down over twice the number of aircraft than the Spitfire did in the BoB.

 

[tomo pauk]

...
Note that when A-36As escorted B-26s to Italy in 1943, Gen Doolittle took notice. The Mustang was a distance maker. Who ever thought of using the A-36A as an escort fighter (likely a dive bomber pilot) should have been promoted (my personal view)!
...

I could not agree more However - Ethel notes that they escorted B-17s and -24s (presumably when those were flying at unusually low altitudes?)
I've just checked it out at Gruehagen's 'Mustang' - indeed he notes that P-51 have had a prop of 10'6'', while the one at A-36 and P-51A was 10'9''; steel vs. aluminium blades.

IIRC the Allison powered Mustang was designed as a fast long range low altitude recon fighter as opposed to an interceptor / escort / air superiority fighter. View over the nose for deflection shooting was bad, rear view was bad. the ailerons needed re-sizing etc. It took a bit of re-development to turn it into the war winning Merlin powered Mustang. I'm surprised any of the original Allison powered Mustangs shot down anything at all. In the CBI, they kept the Warhawks for the interceptor / air superiority role and used their Allison powered Mustangs for counter air ops.

Allison powered Mustang was designed as a 'better P-40' - a general use fighter. Later variants also have had bad over-the-nose wiev (retified with the barnd new 'lightweight Mustangs'). Other aircraft also have had bad over-the-nose wiev, like Spitfire, La-5 or Corsair, they also managed to bag thousands of enemy A/C. Looks like a minor problem to me.

The Hurricane had quite a good view over the nose if you take a close view and they did of course shoot down over twice the number of aircraft than the Spitfire did in the BoB.

Did it?