GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The view over the nose of the P-51 was no worse than the view over the nose of the P-40, Spitfire or YaK-9.
Most Overrated aircraft of WWII.....?
- Thread starter Lucky13
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Kevin J
Banned
it was with on the first models
Navalwarrior
Staff Sergeant
- 764
- Jun 17, 2018
Resp:
Mirrors were fitted, both to the outside and inside of the canopy (usually either or). Since none of the ETO Allison engined Mustangs served primarily as fighters, fitting mirrors was a low priority. Note that the first Malcolm hoods were designed for Allison engined Mustangs, although the most common photos that we see are the ones fitted to the B and C model. Gen Hap Arnold viewed a prototype, likely on a F-6B in Sept 1943 while visiting 8th AF bases. Also note that the Malcolm hood was designed by an NAA engineer assigned to England at the time, although a British company by the name of Malcolm produced it. With the hood so fitted, a pilot could actually move/turn his head more than one piloting a D or K model.
Just not sure the 'nose' issue caused any significant loses. As a 'fighter' it was surely less than ideal, but I believe Allison Mustangs deserve credit for performing their assigned duties well. There was no glory in dive bombing, at least compared to pilots who made 'Ace' status, but just ask the infantry who could then advance because A-36As hit their mark, or the Chindits who were able to subdue a superior force with fewer loses because the P-51As' bombs hit their mark. Ask the Allied troops who landed at Normandy about the accuracy of the photos taken by F-6Bs in preparation of the assault. Whoever planned the mission in 1943 that used A-36As to escort B-26 Marauders from Africa to Southern Italy and back, deserves credit in a most successful bombing attack, and who opened the eyes (and changed Doolittles's view of the need for fighter escort) of the next 8th AF Commander. So most historians aren't aware of the Allison Mustang's contributions. When one studies WWII, the CBI is the least researched/known theater. These first Mustangs get little credit.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
You will find that the Spit had a better kill/loss record than the Hurricane.
Nope, the first Malcolm hoods were for Spitfires which were adopted to the Mustang.
Kevin J
Banned
Only if you count all the Hurricane squadrons in the UK. If you just count those in the battle, where the fighters were equal in number, the position reverses.
Shortround6
Major General
On the Mustang propellers.
AHT say's the XP-51 prototype had a 10 ft 6 in prop. It doesn't say what the British Mustang Is had. It does say that the early P-51s used a 10 ft 9 in prop.
The Merlin powered planes used either an 11ft 2 in Hamilton Standard or an 11 ft 1 in Aeroproducts propeller.
One drawing shows 76.5 in from the centerline of the prop to the ground with the plane in the horizontal position ( tail up) for the B & C. That leaves you with 9.5 in of ground clearance. The shocks in the main landing legs had 8.0 in of travel. I don't know how much they were compressed (if any) with that 76.5 prop center line to ground measurement.
There is not a whole lot of room for larger props than were used before there is a real danger of prop strikes.
AHT say's the XP-51 prototype had a 10 ft 6 in prop. It doesn't say what the British Mustang Is had. It does say that the early P-51s used a 10 ft 9 in prop.
The Merlin powered planes used either an 11ft 2 in Hamilton Standard or an 11 ft 1 in Aeroproducts propeller.
One drawing shows 76.5 in from the centerline of the prop to the ground with the plane in the horizontal position ( tail up) for the B & C. That leaves you with 9.5 in of ground clearance. The shocks in the main landing legs had 8.0 in of travel. I don't know how much they were compressed (if any) with that 76.5 prop center line to ground measurement.
There is not a whole lot of room for larger props than were used before there is a real danger of prop strikes.
There as at least one Hurricane squadron in Egypt in 1940. Roald Dahl was one of the pilots and became an Ace
No 80 squadron was operating Hurricanes in Egypt by June 1940. I believe 2 Squadron SAAF may have switched to hurricanes before the end of the BoB as well but I'm not sure.
That is probably it. I don't think any hurricanes made it to the Far East until 1942
S
Navalwarrior
Staff Sergeant
- 764
- Jun 17, 2018
Sorry, I wasn't clear. The first bulged sliding hoods of the Spitfire should not be confused with the 'Malcolm' hoods developed and used on early Mustangs. Generally, the term 'Malcolm hood' refers to those hoods retro fitted to Mustangs that originally had lattice framed canopies, although I have seen a similar hood fitted to razorback P-47s.
The Allison Mustangs might have had the worst 'fighting view' of any fighter in WWII. This is measured by looking at the angle from the sighting line to the obstruction line.
Here is a Typhoon to illustrate:
The air intake limited this to about 2.66 degrees in the Allison Mustang. The Tomahawk was approximately 3.0 degrees and the Spitfire just over 3.75 degrees.
Navalwarrior
Staff Sergeant
- 764
- Jun 17, 2018
Resp:
It is true that the RAF used Mustangs to escort long range bombers on missions. However, this discussion was on Allison engine Mustangs. The RAF flew very few daylight bombing missions as they soon realized, or believed the losses of aircraft (bombers and crews) was too great during daytime, so they began bombing at night, where fighters were seen as unnecessary. I know of only one early mission to Germany in 1942 where the RAF used Mustang MkIs for escort, which were Wellington bombers to just inside the west border of Germany. When the first RAF Merlin engined Mustangs arrived, they were the Mustang MkIII. By the time the RAF employed these Merlin Mustangs for daylight bomber escort missions, the Americans were flying relays (where one group of fighters would provide ingress, another group to target and initial return, with a third group provide egress for the last leg home). So the RAF was essentially escorting US bombers. The new models incorporated the high altitude Merlin engine, which solved the issues of the lower altitude Allison engine
Kevin J
Banned
wuzak
Captain
Those in groups other than 11 Group (main group fighting BoB) and 12 Group (they of the Big Wing thinking).
There was 10 Group (South-West England) and 13 Group (Scotland, Northern Ireland, Northern England). Among others.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
While that's interesting, how would the degree of view be effected when the pilot ajdusts his seat?
drgondog
Major
NAA designed a sliding hood that was tested on a Mustang IA and deemed noisy but acceptable. The report was written December 1942.
BPC/RAF requested that future deliveries of Mustangs (III) be delivered with a NAA equivalent to Malcolm Hood - which was at same time that both the XP-51F contract was in progress as well as the bubble canopy MCR was issued for the NA-102 Spec for P-51B-1-NA (March 1943). During this same time the NA-106 was in progress, which originally began as a six gun wing/bird cage canopy version of the P-51B-5 for mid block release.
NAA also dabbled with a sliding hood which was tested in wind tunnel July/August 1942 - similar to Japanese A6M. Windshield and aft enclosed section fixed, with center section sliding to the rear.
Summary, there were no Malcolm Hoods on any RAF Mustang until late November 1943 when the first of the P-51B-5-NA's were delivered to RAF and two were sent to R.Malcolm. Those two were re-assigned along with several more to 9th AF in December 1943 as 357 FG was ramping up with new Mustangs from States,
