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- #21
michaelmaltby
Colonel
Yes - very good. And if you want to think about remarkable - think Cambodia post Pol Pot (Killing Fields).
MM
MM
Most successful country post WW2
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Germany - looks good - but the problem is that GERMANS WON'T FIGHT any more. Is that PROGRESSYou know it isn't.
How is it not?
The German people are finally tired of blood shed, what is wrong with that and why is that bad?
In a 30 year time period approx. 10,933,597 Germans were killed (both military and civilian). Not a single family even today was not effected by the wars. Is it not hard to understand that they do not want war anymore?
machine shop tom
Senior Airman
- 504
- Apr 13, 2007
Let's not forget the Marshall Plan that laid the groundwork for (West) Germany's turnaround and MacArthur's hand in Japan's comeback as well.
tom
tom
imalko
Chief Master Sergeant
Hm, that didn't stop them to take part in NATO bombing of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia in 1999. I might be mistaken, but doesn't German constitution say that Germany should never again engage in armed conflict (except a defensive one I presume) against another country.
(Not trying to start political discussion here, just making an observation based on quoted post.)
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- Thread starter
- #25
michaelmaltby
Colonel
".... The German people are finally tired of blood shed, what is wrong with that and why is that bad."
Like sex - abstinence is as bad as over-indulgence. Two bad wars for the Germans - bad because they were the losing side and paid horribly. But surely there are matters worth fighting for - and there are matters that if they are allowed to go unchecked - threaten western democracy as we know it. Germany has prospered since WW - that doesn't mean it should denounce fighting for western democracy. 9-11 was a direct challenge to capitalism and western free-market, liberal democracy.
I would like to see Germans fighting along side Germany's NATO allies - US, Canada, Australia, GB, Estonia, Poland, Romania, France ( don't want to miss anyone) -- not sitting on the sidelines in non-combatant roles.
When a society has all instincts for fighting whipped out of it - it loses the capacity to fight for what is right.
Because Germany made 2 bad choices doesn't mean that Germany shouldn't step up and fight, IMHO.
MM
Like sex - abstinence is as bad as over-indulgence. Two bad wars for the Germans - bad because they were the losing side and paid horribly. But surely there are matters worth fighting for - and there are matters that if they are allowed to go unchecked - threaten western democracy as we know it. Germany has prospered since WW - that doesn't mean it should denounce fighting for western democracy. 9-11 was a direct challenge to capitalism and western free-market, liberal democracy.
I would like to see Germans fighting along side Germany's NATO allies - US, Canada, Australia, GB, Estonia, Poland, Romania, France ( don't want to miss anyone
) -- not sitting on the sidelines in non-combatant roles.When a society has all instincts for fighting whipped out of it - it loses the capacity to fight for what is right.
Because Germany made 2 bad choices doesn't mean that Germany shouldn't step up and fight, IMHO.
MM
(Not trying to start political discussion here, just making an observation based on quoted post.)[/QUOTE]
German aircraft did not drop any bombs. They flew recon missions. If your people had not been killing each other then there would have been no NATO bombing. That is a whole different topic though, and if you wish to discuss that start a different thread for it.
As to the other part. yes the German constitution allows for defensive operations and no offensive operations.
".... The German people are finally tired of blood shed, what is wrong with that and why is that bad."
Like sex - abstinence is as bad as over-indulgence. Two bad wars for the Germans - bad because they were the losing side and paid horribly. But surely there are matters worth fighting for - and there are matters that if they are allowed to go unchecked - threaten western democracy as we know it. Germany has prospered since WW - that doesn't mean it should denounce fighting for western democracy. 9-11 was a direct challenge to capitalism and western free-market, liberal democracy.
I would like to see Germans fighting along side Germany's NATO allies - US, Canada, Australia, GB, Estonia, Poland, Romania, France ( don't want to miss anyone
When a society has all instincts for fighting whipped out of it - it loses the capacity to fight for what is right.
Because Germany made 2 bad choices doesn't mean that Germany shouldn't step up and fight, IMHO.
MM
You obviously have no clue about the German people. I suggest you come over here and talk to people and then you might understand. This is getting way off topic now though. Honestly I too would love to see them take a more offensive role, but actually living among the people here, I can understand why they do not want conflict anymore. When every person on my block here lost someone in the fighting of WW2 (yes every house hold on this block), I can certainly understand it. If they do not wish this, that is their choice and it is ignorant to wish something else upon them. This country does not want to see their loved ones die anymore, nothing wrong with that. Only people not effected in such a large way, would wish such things.
Like I said though, this is bordering off topic, lets not let it get that way.
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Willszenith
Recruit
- 8
- Mar 5, 2010
".... The German people are finally tired of blood shed, what is wrong with that and why is that bad."
Like sex - abstinence is as bad as over-indulgence. Two bad wars for the Germans - bad because they were the losing side and paid horribly. But surely there are matters worth fighting for - and there are matters that if they are allowed to go unchecked - threaten western democracy as we know it. Germany has prospered since WW - that doesn't mean it should denounce fighting for western democracy. 9-11 was a direct challenge to capitalism and western free-market, liberal democracy.
I would like to see Germans fighting along side Germany's NATO allies - US, Canada, Australia, GB, Estonia, Poland, Romania, France ( don't want to miss anyone
When a society has all instincts for fighting whipped out of it - it loses the capacity to fight for what is right.
Because Germany made 2 bad choices doesn't mean that Germany shouldn't step up and fight, IMHO.
MM
wow genralise much? having been stationed in germany, and now currently working with german pilots there is now way they would back down from a fight. So many coldwar joint RAF/luftwaffe/Usaaf sorties flown, devised , revised and still continue in a nato role, that the germans are not only capable but easily some of the best in the world.
Finland? finland fought a defensive war, and fought admirably but thats it , they refused to get sucked into the rest of the conflict, they defended their territories and thats all, they didnt liberate nor were aggresors they just looked after themselves and their intrests.
Nokia market growth is slowing , the south koreans build better phones now...
Willszenith
Recruit
- 8
- Mar 5, 2010
oh and the swiss are the real winners... all those nazi funds...
36feet10inches
Staff Sergeant
Except they were not a combatant. This was supposed to be about the losing side.
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- #31
michaelmaltby
Colonel
Wow - me - step in it or what - .
"You obviously have no clue about the German people." You're right - CrewChief - only those who have immigrated to Canada - and many of those Germans-now-Canadians I know very well indeed. Much respect and affection for them - but like Brits that have immigrated here one observes the latent effects of Europe on their thinking and values.
"... wow genralise much? having been stationed in germany, and now currently working with german pilots there is now way they would back down from a fight. So many coldwar joint RAF/luftwaffe/Usaaf sorties flown, devised , revised and still continue in a nato role, that the germans are not only capable but easily some of the best in the world.
Finland? finland fought a defensive war, and fought admirably but thats it.
Willszenith - Without generalization humankind would not have language - we'd still be sniffing and touching to understand unique specifics. (Watch a three-month old to understand life before generalizations)
I don't recall saying anything about Germans not being courageous warriors. Please don't put insinuations in my mouth
Glad that YOU have had the opportunity to observe joint LW air ops.
Regarding Finland - please support your claim with proof that Finnish forces didn't advance into the Leningrad front with their German allies in the Continuation War. And post Peace Treaty - that Finnish forces didn't tackle their former German allies in the far north - Norway (?) - on orders - as part of the peace terms with the Soviets.
I agree with any and all who state that a government should have the right to legislate that their "forces" be only used for "defense" or "peacekeeping". That is the story of Canada's Armed Forces from post Korea to Bosnia. While that position is admirable I suggest it leads to a loss of political will - over time. Accommodation is a wonderful social philosophy that makes countries like Canada possible. But at a certain point in time - the load tips, the balance shifts - 9-11 was one of those moments. Pearl Harbor was clear-cut, open and shut. But the political climate was different. People didn't walk around on December 10, 1941 saying things like "America deserved this", or "the Jews all stayed home", and the crowds weren't dancing in the streets in California's Nippon Village.
9-11 was war. The plotters used a generous German social program (among other countries' as well) to plot and plan. Why Germans would not recognize that with time - German society and values are a much at risk as America's - and especially when their neighbor the U.K. has become a hydroponic flower bed for home grown terrorists - is beyond me.
So I have suggested that Germany is not pulling its share of the weight in Af'stan. I stand by that. Germany we need you. Step up, please.
And the same for Japanese society. It's time to dig up the bodies, re-bury them at return to living in the real world.
Democracy - which has served both Germany and Japan very well since 1945 - is at a cross roads. Nuclear Iran. Crazy North Korea. Influence-hungry Saudi Arabia. And the legitimate State of Israel are NOT going to just disappear any more that Hitler or Stalin did.
Proud Canadian
MM
."You obviously have no clue about the German people." You're right - CrewChief - only those who have immigrated to Canada - and many of those Germans-now-Canadians I know very well indeed.
Much respect and affection for them - but like Brits that have immigrated here one observes the latent effects of Europe on their thinking and values. "... wow genralise much? having been stationed in germany, and now currently working with german pilots there is now way they would back down from a fight. So many coldwar joint RAF/luftwaffe/Usaaf sorties flown, devised , revised and still continue in a nato role, that the germans are not only capable but easily some of the best in the world.
Finland? finland fought a defensive war, and fought admirably but thats it.
Willszenith - Without generalization humankind would not have language - we'd still be sniffing and touching to understand unique specifics. (Watch a three-month old to understand life before generalizations
)I don't recall saying anything about Germans not being courageous warriors. Please don't put insinuations in my mouth
Glad that YOU have had the opportunity to observe joint LW air ops.
Regarding Finland - please support your claim with proof that Finnish forces didn't advance into the Leningrad front with their German allies in the Continuation War. And post Peace Treaty - that Finnish forces didn't tackle their former German allies in the far north - Norway (?) - on orders - as part of the peace terms with the Soviets.
I agree with any and all who state that a government should have the right to legislate that their "forces" be only used for "defense" or "peacekeeping". That is the story of Canada's Armed Forces from post Korea to Bosnia. While that position is admirable I suggest it leads to a loss of political will - over time. Accommodation is a wonderful social philosophy that makes countries like Canada possible. But at a certain point in time - the load tips, the balance shifts - 9-11 was one of those moments. Pearl Harbor was clear-cut, open and shut. But the political climate was different. People didn't walk around on December 10, 1941 saying things like "America deserved this", or "the Jews all stayed home", and the crowds weren't dancing in the streets in California's Nippon Village.
9-11 was war. The plotters used a generous German social program (among other countries' as well) to plot and plan. Why Germans would not recognize that with time - German society and values are a much at risk as America's - and especially when their neighbor the U.K. has become a hydroponic flower bed for home grown terrorists - is beyond me.
So I have suggested that Germany is not pulling its share of the weight in Af'stan. I stand by that. Germany we need you. Step up, please.
And the same for Japanese society. It's time to dig up the bodies, re-bury them at return to living in the real world.
Democracy - which has served both Germany and Japan very well since 1945 - is at a cross roads. Nuclear Iran. Crazy North Korea. Influence-hungry Saudi Arabia. And the legitimate State of Israel are NOT going to just disappear any more that Hitler or Stalin did.
Proud Canadian
MM
parsifal
Colonel
I would agree that germany and japan staged the most remarkable recovery, but I am doubtful that these nations benefitted the most out of the war 9I am ignoring the most successful axis nation).
Germany prewar was about the third or fourth ranked nation in the world stage. As a result of her defeat she fell almost to oblivion, but with the help of marshall aid managed to regain her position of third or fourth most powerful nation in the world. in other words she recovered from the war, but in terms of worlld position, did not benefit from it.
The Japanese started 6th or 7th on the world stage, and has probably one or two spaces ....a slight improvement. In terms of standards of living both nations have done extremely well. Both nations have rejected militarism, but in Germany's case worrying racial trends rremain with regard to fringe minorities like the neo- nazis and the like...
Nations like Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc have done well with post war migration and the cementing of their position in the world stage as raw materials provideres, and stable democracies. Finland is in a similar category to this, but its hard to argue they are the countries that did best out of the war.
As I sais, i think that some of the third world countries have done remarkably well out of the war...countries like india and china started from so far behind....now look at them....
Germany prewar was about the third or fourth ranked nation in the world stage. As a result of her defeat she fell almost to oblivion, but with the help of marshall aid managed to regain her position of third or fourth most powerful nation in the world. in other words she recovered from the war, but in terms of worlld position, did not benefit from it.
The Japanese started 6th or 7th on the world stage, and has probably one or two spaces ....a slight improvement. In terms of standards of living both nations have done extremely well. Both nations have rejected militarism, but in Germany's case worrying racial trends rremain with regard to fringe minorities like the neo- nazis and the like...
Nations like Australia, Canada, New Zealand etc have done well with post war migration and the cementing of their position in the world stage as raw materials provideres, and stable democracies. Finland is in a similar category to this, but its hard to argue they are the countries that did best out of the war.
As I sais, i think that some of the third world countries have done remarkably well out of the war...countries like india and china started from so far behind....now look at them....
- Thread starter
- #33
michaelmaltby
Colonel
Parsifal - as always I agree with your analysis. If you return to my original premise - I spoke of turning lemons into lemonade .
The Finns are my personal choice because they took real adversity and dealt with it - and moved on. Countries that "blame" their history on others' actions don't advance - just like people - they don't mature. Accountability is what we have a right to expect from people and governments alike.
MM
.The Finns are my personal choice because they took real adversity and dealt with it - and moved on. Countries that "blame" their history on others' actions don't advance - just like people - they don't mature. Accountability is what we have a right to expect from people and governments alike.
MM
I think they are doing a fine job within the confines of the constitution.
- Thread starter
- #35
michaelmaltby
Colonel
Spoken as a German or as an American - their constitution or yours?
Just curious.
MM
Just curious.
MM
Spoken as a German or as an American - their constitution or yours?
Just curious.
MM
I spoke it as an American who believes that a country has to decide for themselves on whether they want to fight or not, and NO country or any person can say otherwise. They have chosen to have a constitution that prevents offensive operations, that is their choice, and they are doing a good job within their constitution. We also have no right to demand they change it either. That is what makes them a sovereign nation. If they were to choose to change it, fine, I would stand by them for it.
As stated before I personally would like to see them change it and be more offensive, but I can completely understand why they do not wish to be an offensive and fighting nation. I have lived among the people for many many years and understand them. One can not base a true opinion off only speaking with Germans that have immigrated. I have spoken with a few Canadians who I served in the US Army with, I will not base my opinion off of Canadians based off the few that I served with.
The country has decided for themselves that they have caused and seen enough blood shed. Come over here and drive into any little town and you will such things as below. These pictures were taken in the town that I live in at the moment. It has a population of about 3000, count the names on this monument. Every town has one of these.
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- #37
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"... These pictures were taken in the town that I live in at the moment. It has a population of about 3000, count the names on this monument. Every town has one of these."
Well then - by that logic - Americans should have come to their senses and denounced war after the Civil War - based on the frequency of monuments and cenotaphs in small town America. In hindsight - would that have better served western civilization and humanity? I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN POSITIVE.
Photo is Streetsville, Canada
MM
Well then - by that logic - Americans should have come to their senses and denounced war after the Civil War - based on the frequency of monuments and cenotaphs in small town America. In hindsight - would that have better served western civilization and humanity? I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN POSITIVE.
Photo is Streetsville, Canada
MM
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Maximowitz
Tech Sergeant
"... These pictures were taken in the town that I live in at the moment. It has a population of about 3000, count the names on this monument. Every town has one of these."
Well then - by that logic - Americans should have come to their senses and denounced war after the Civil War - based on the frequency of monuments and cenotaphs in small town America. In hindsight - would that have better served western civilization and humanity? I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN POSITIVE.
Photo is Streetsville, Canada
MM
There are war memorials in every country. Every one of them stands as testimony to human stupidity and lives lost for nothing. When humanity finally grows up and takes responsibility for its own existence there will be no need for them.
I'm not holding my breath.
- Thread starter
- #39
michaelmaltby
Colonel
"... Every one of them stands as testimony to human stupidity and lives lost for nothing."
Really Max - is that how you really feel - sitting at your computer reacting freely and honestly to this thread? Your freedom is worth "nothing"? In China - people are looking over their shoulders on the Internet.
Proud Canadian
MM
Really Max - is that how you really feel - sitting at your computer reacting freely and honestly to this thread? Your freedom is worth "nothing"? In China - people are looking over their shoulders on the Internet.
Proud Canadian
MM
"... These pictures were taken in the town that I live in at the moment. It has a population of about 3000, count the names on this monument. Every town has one of these."
Well then - by that logic - Americans should have come to their senses and denounced war after the Civil War - based on the frequency of monuments and cenotaphs in small town America. In hindsight - would that have better served western civilization and humanity? I DON'T BELIEVE THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN POSITIVE.
Photo is Streetsville, Canada
MM
You are completely ignoring my point. My point being that the people have chosen to rebuild their country in this way because of these things. It is not a "by that logic" kind of thing...
You can not expect every nation and people to be the same. They are tired of having been a part of the 2 worst wars that have ever taken place. Families do not want to bury more of their loved ones, they have buried enough of them in such a short time period. I think that if our nations the United States and Canada were to experience what Germany has on our own soils (no neither of our countries have experience total war of this magnitude on our own soils), we might think differently as well. Since we have not, we can not judge them...
Actually he is partially correct. We as a human race are stupid and war is terrible and stupid. I don't know any soldier that has been in a combat environment (myself included) that wishes to see it again. I however would not say that any of these monuments are for soldiers that died for nothing. Especially those that fought to rid the world of tyranny.
Any nation that chooses peace over war is doing the correct thing. Now don't go and take what I said of context (I am sure you are going to do so right here). I am not saying that we should not fight for what we believe in, and wars are inevitable. I am also not saying that we as should stand aside and never fight for what is right and for the good of the civilized world. I am not a hippie waving a peace sign or anything. I have no regrets about my military service, I support the military 100% in both Iraq and Afghanistan. I just think that the world would be a much better place if we all (the whole world) got our heads out of our asses and did not try and kill each other all the damn time.
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