MOST UNDERRATED AIRCRAFT OF WWII?
- Thread starter cheddar cheese
- Start date
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I'm guessing the Fi156 that the Piper encountered was an earlier type, as the later Fieslers were armed with an MG15.
Does dreaming and drooling count? They're above my pay grade, but I've ridden 'em, driven 'em, and wrenched on 'em, and in my dream world would own and fly a Fokker D-7 with the BMW version of the OHC six-banger.Wes,
Have you ever owned a BMW?
Cheers,
Biff
The "Bavarian Benz" managed to crank out twenty+ more horsepower than the best Mercedes could get out of their own engine, and without increasing RPM and losing that power in the prop. This according to my engines instructor at mechanic school, a wily old cuss with experience back to the '30s, and 8th AF in WII, as well as at Cole Palen's Old Rhinebeck Aerodrome. Another ordinary guy doing extraordinary things.
Cheers,
Wes
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And I'm guessing that given the L4's advantage of surprise and approach angle, even if the Storch was armed, it probably couldn't have gotten its gun to bear before its wingtip collided with the ground. Besides in those desperate days of last stand of the Reich, the gun had probably been stripped off and given to the troops who needed it more.
And according to Wiki (I know, I know, not the best source in the word!), the C2 version equipped with the defensive gun was only built in 1940-41, and then only 200-odd copies.
Cheers,
Wes
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Elvis
Chief Master Sergeant
Yeah, but the stall is about 10-20 mph lower with the Storch.
I do remember the story, now that I read your link.
Haven't thought about that in many a year.
Kinda poetic if you think about it. Every other type of plane got into at least one dogfight during the war, why not the spotters too! =)
Thank for posting that.
Elvis
NOTE: now rethinking that "dogfight" comment. C47 in a dogfight? Now I have to research that one!
Shortround6
Major General
Not sure about a "dog fight" but at least one C-47 flying the hump into China may have had passengers firing BARs or Thompsons out the side Windows at attacking planes.
I beleive some C-47s had gun ports in the windows?
I beleive some C-47s had gun ports in the windows?
Elvis
Chief Master Sergeant
...wouldn't be surprised...
But the L-4, being lighter, decelerates and accelerates in only slightly more distance than the Storch. Not enough to make an operational difference.
Some cowboy (who shall remain nameless) made a takeoff across the terminal ramp BETWEEN PARKED AIRCRAFT in a 65 horse J3 as part of a "Flying Farmer" act at a local airshow forty years ago here. Knocked everybody's socks off, and the FAA rep was indoors standing in line for the rest room and none the wiser. I didn't believe my eyes, having at the time never flown one, but later discovered I could takeoff in equivalent distance, though in less irresponsible circumstances.
A local air cargo company restored several DC-3s in invasion colors and flew them for awhile on UPS feeder contracts. They had gunports in the windows. I rode in one once. It was originally a civilianized C-53, but they reconfigured it to resemble a C-47, except they retained the uprated "civilian" 1830s rather than reverting to the original 1820s.
Cheers,
Wes
michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
Yes some did. When I was about 10 after building a model I asked my grandfather,who worked at Douglas and helped build them, why C47s didn't have defensive armament like bombers did. He informed me that some did indeed have gun ports.
Elvis
Chief Master Sergeant
True, you can do some surprisingly aerobatic moves in an L-4...
...but it still can't fly as slow as a Storch...
Elvis
Chief Master Sergeant
...unless you mod the heck out of the Cub's wings...
...granted, the beginning portion of that video was slowed down on purpose, but notice the similarity between the modded wings on that Backcountry Super Cub Rev 2 and the wings on the Fiesler Storch.
Elvis
...granted, the beginning portion of that video was slowed down on purpose, but notice the similarity between the modded wings on that Backcountry Super Cub Rev 2 and the wings on the Fiesler Storch.
Elvis
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GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Quite a few Allied and Axis transports (both glider and powered) had gunports to enable the troops inside to help defend the aircraft.
TILT! FOUL! OFF TOPIC! By the time you start talking PA-18s it's a whole 'nother ball of wax! Heavier, more powerful, faster, and those primitive Piper zap flaps don't really compensate for the extra speed and weight.
I worked one summer at a little country strip where the local CAP squadron had a PA-18 and one of the members had a J-3 done up as an L-4. Part of every CAP meeting was a landing contest (we weren't much into uniforms and marching and all that military crap. We were all vets and over that stuff). Try as we might, we could never takeoff and land our Super Cub as short as the L-4 in the grass. On pavement it was a little closer, as the Super had much better brakes.
It didn't look to me like the L-4 pilot in the video was making a maximum effort at a short landing. He flew a high and tight pattern and came over the fence in a slip (which requires a bit of a speed cushion for safety), leaving him with a little extra speed over the numbers. Betcha if he flew a longer final, wings level with just a touch of power on, he would come close to rivaling the Storch, which doesn't actually land at its minimum slow flight speed, needing just a little extra for sink rate control.
Cheers,
Wes
Elvis
Chief Master Sergeant
UNCLE! I GIVE! I GIVE! 
( 
)
We were discussing the agility of the two planes, thus the trick flying video (that's the one you mentioned about a shorter landing?)
...and yeah, the last vid is a Super Cub. In fact its a modified Super Cub! The idea of that video was to show that the Storch's prowess really lies in its wing and that a Cub (or rather, "Cub") could do the same or better with a similar wing.
...apologies if those points weren't clear in the original posts.
Elvis
( )We were discussing the agility of the two planes, thus the trick flying video (that's the one you mentioned about a shorter landing?)
...and yeah, the last vid is a Super Cub. In fact its a modified Super Cub! The idea of that video was to show that the Storch's prowess really lies in its wing and that a Cub (or rather, "Cub") could do the same or better with a similar wing.
...apologies if those points weren't clear in the original posts.
Elvis
Yeah, you could add full span Junkers style slotted trailing edge flaps and flaperons and a leading edge slat to your L-4, but that rumble you'd feel underfoot would be Bill Piper and John Taylor rolling over in their graves as you desecrate their sweet, light, and simple little airplane. Heresy risks excommunication.
Cheers,
Wes
Elvis
Chief Master Sergeant
...fair enough. I was thinking more; flip-up leading edge slats and fowler flaps, but there's nothing wrong with the basic design, either.I gotta wonder though, if they were designing that plane today (assuming nothing similar would be in existence), if they wouldn't offer those, at least as options, to the basic package.
Elvis
Have you seen a J3/L4 with its fabric off? I've helped disassemble, strip, re cover, and reassemble them. The wings are so light one guy can pick one up easily if he can get a good grip on it near the CG (damn awkward sumbitch).
I gotta wonder though, if they were designing that plane today (assuming nothing similar would be in existence), if they wouldn't offer those, at least as options, to the basic package.
Elvis
Part of the reason they're so light is they don't need much re-enforcing structure on the leading and trailing edges. The aileron is attached directly to the rear spar and a straight flap would be too, if it had one. Check the PA-18.
Now if you go and put a serious fowler flap with its high lift and high drag back there, you're going to introduce all kinds of additional torsional stresses, which is going to require heavier structure and a more robust and better braced actuating system. Ditto for leading edge slats. The pounds add up, and next thing, you're going to need heavier spars to maintain your G limits with the heavier weight, then it's more horsepower, which of course means more fuel, and your sweet, light, simple design has spiralled out of control. Might as well just give up and go buy a Fieseler.
Cheers,
Wes
SLOTS are a much more complicated shape with more skinned surface and more internal shaping ribs, so yes it will add significant weight, but not as much as retractable slats would. Also wouldn't give as much performance gain.
Cheers,
Wes
