multiple B17, B24 claims

[drgondog]

Stab and II.Sturm/JG 300 flew off with IV.Sturm/JG 3 but it was not a unified attack as the JG 300 section flew to the east attacking in their words a large B-24 pulk in the area of Halberstedt/Bernburg/Sangerhausen. IV. JG 3 Fw's hit the 492nd bg from the rear over Oschersleben. and with these two attacks both Sturmgruppen became intermixed.

I./JG 300 Bf 109G's mixed it up with P-51's between Bitterfeld/Leipzig. These conflicts were a little later and involved 361st and 357th between 0940-1000. P-38s w/Landers leading the 55th had a field day in the Leipzig to Merseburg area.

III./JG 300 was protecting Me 410's of I. and II./ZG 26 which did make claims but I have found no proof of these all claims would of been under SturmFw jurisdiction. the 492nd bg lost 12 B-24's to IV./JG 3 alone and the SturmFw unit claimed a total of 26 B-24's as total for a loss of 4 Fw 190's. What other US bomber units the IV./JG 3 attacked I am not sure possibly the 44th bg ?

I haven't found valid credit for a Me 410 that is provable BUT the 355th peeled back from the 453rd (their assigned Vinegrove 1-1) to meet oncoming Me 410s and 109s attacking the 389th BG in trail position behind the 453rd. One of the 389th BG B-24s went down to fighters between Querfurt and Halle. From Tony's list that would be a match for 6./ZG26 claim/credit at 0920-0930. They Absolutely shot down the leading ace of the 20th (Morris) when they caught him in a crossfire west of Querfurt. Skully from the 4th collided with an Me 410 that he shot down which may match the 'credit' for Hartzggerode-Arten at 0925 (4th FG sez near Sangerhausen at 0910)

II./JG 300 Fw pilots put in claims for 12 bombers and were given credit for 8. The '8' pretty well matches the 7 air/1 flak that the 382nd and 44th lost inbound and at Bernburg

as to P-51 claims it appears that only the Me 410's of ZG 26 were given credit of 2 of which they had first claimed 6. II./JG 5 in the area claimed 2 B-24's and 2 P-51's and my opinion they were given official credit for 0.

ZG26 figured in one 'incident' in which a Mustang went down. Huish, Kinnard's wingman ran into a Me 410 engine when Kinnard blew it up between Querfurt and Halle. ZG76 was involved in the Skully MAC from 4th FG. Fuller from 357/355FG was KIA by flak when he and Minchew and Haviland were chasing ZG26 over Naumburg at ~0940.

this is all in brief Bill obviously as I have not really sorted out the multiple pages I have on tab.

Thanks E - we seem to be on same story - I will send you my book versions of 7 July shortly

I finally found out after looking at the 4th FG histories that they WERE assigned to cover both Bernburg and Aschersleben but were late on take off and 336th FS assigned to cover 2CW didn't get to R/V (originally Minden) until after the 14th CW was driving for Bernburg and 96th was headed for Aschersleben and everybody from 4th covered 96th CW, leaving the 14th uncovered, so the 'planners' didn't screw up after all - just bad luck.

 

[drgondog]

Thanks Steve - both of us have collaborated on 'the other side' for several of the bigger battles between 8th FC Mustangs (355th mostly) the 8th BC bombers and the wiley and tough LW.

 

[aquarya]

might be good to pick up a copy of volume 2 JG 300 from Eagle-editions.com

you might be surprised as to what this Reich defense unit was capable of as well as IV.Sturm/JG 3 did on 27 September 1944. possibilities exist when the US escort system was not in place at the right time, this was extremely rare but it did happen. In regards to the above date I mentioned all 3 heavy Fw 190Gruppen were in an attack from the rear and JG 3 was to reach the poor 445th bg first shooting down 18 of the B-24's before the 361st fg could catch them which they did not as they has already hit the deck. I have studied the above operation at length for some 15 years and have found indeed the claims of the JG 3 come true sadly. Ossi Romm shot down 3 himself and his interview is placed in one of Alfred Prices books from years gone back but there is more to this story. Ossi selected his quarry on the side/flank if you will of the US bg and took out 3 B-24's in a slow methodical action as he flew forward.

also on 26 November 1944 which Bill knows full well about pilot Oberfeldwebel Hans Müller of 2./JG 301 flying a standard Fw 190A-8 with four 2cm weapons shot down 3 B-24's of the 491st bg. He started on the rear of the Bomb group and slowly moved his way forward before he banked off and hit the deck somehow avoiding the P-51's.

I would simply question Freys accts as well as Hermichens as the attacks were ,made from the front unless as stated earlier these pilots were able to run the risk of attacking following US bomb groups in succession. this is the only way this could of worked.

as to
Weals book they are forced/pushed into publication without primary sources as background he has used old lists copied which need revamping and other books already written that need a good clean-up

I can't speak to Sept 6 43 but can confirm that 5 B-24's were shot down by JG2 on Jan 7 44. So the focus shouldn't be on whether the kills happened or not, as they did. Egon Mayer got credit for several. It brings up another question in my mind which I hesitate to put in writing...

These were head-on attacks with fighter escort gone and otherwise engaged by part of JG2 when they came back from the bomber calls for help, so Mayer and part of JG2 had free reign. I don't doubt Egon Mayer was good enough to get several in head on attacks, as they attacked for quite some time and had multiple free reign passes at the bombers. But DID he actually, is the question? I don't know if one can ever confirm, without speaking to the pilots that were there. He was granted credit through the system, though. That might be the best we'll ever know for sure.