multiple B17, B24 claims

[steve51]

Gentlemen,
I just finished reading 'fw 190 Defence of the Reich Aces', and the author mentions 11 different occasions when German pilots claimed 3 or more B17 or B24 on a single mission.
Hans Laun June 22, 43
Egon Mayer Sept 6, 43
Egon Mayer Jan 7, 44
Rolf Hermichon Feb 20, 44
Adolf Glunz Feb 22, 44
Alwin Doppler Feb 24, 44
Rolf Hermichon March 6, 44
Hugo Frey March 6, 44
Rolf Hermichon March 8, 44
Anton Hackl March 18, 44
Hans-Heinrich Koenig April 29, 44
Has recent research given any measure of credibility to these claims? I would think that downing 3 or 4 B17s would be very difficult.

 

[drgondog]

Absent linking a KU report to a crashed B-17/24 by location of claim, there is nowhere to even start. In the research I have done for the past 20 years, the LW credit system approximates 2:1 of credit to actual loss. The convers (B-17/24 credits vs LW actuals) approximates 12:1

 

[steve51]

drgondog,
Yes, the author, John Weal, points out the roughly 2 to 1 overclaim by the German intercepters. As I'm sure you realize, an individual may be accurate even while there is general overclaiming. Having said that, it still seems unlikely to score this much. Most of them are victories and not 'herausschusse'.
The only detail given is for the Hugo Frey claims on 3-6-44, where it is stated that the 388 BG supplied the 4 victims. I'm curious if anyone has looked into any of these claims.

 

[drgondog]

Aces of the Luftwaffe - Hugo Frey lists all of Frey's credits between 15:05 and 15:15.

The Macr's have the losses in 388th BG on outbound (home) route between `1330 (magdeburg) 1400 (Celle) and 1503 (Ems River/Zwolle area). One other left formation between Dummer Lake and Meppen ~ 1444 and went to Sweden.

Facts - Six total 388BG losses - one to mid-air collision north of Quackenbruck ~ 1444, one hit by fighter at same location and time (1444) and flew to Sweden, one to mid-air collision near Celle ~ 1420, one near Magdeburg (S. Berlin) time unk but has to be around 1330, one at Graschshaft Bertheim (German/Dutch Border) at 1500 claimed by flak battery, and one that was shot down by fighters near Zwolle at 1503.

KU reports have been known to be in error when stating cause - so it is possible that Frey shot down the one on the border, (KU-1129). It is possible that when he was KIA that he collided with the B-17 north of Quackenbruck (at ~1444) but then could not have any more near the German border but could also receiver credit for the limp off to Sweden from same area.

It is neither probable nor hardly possible for him to shoot down the one near Celle (ne of Hannover), impossible for the Magdeburg downing, nor the one by MAC near Hannover.

So, the probabilities reduce to two 'confirmed' between Meppen and Zwolle between 1500 (claimed by flak battery) and 1503.

He is recorded in Tony Woods in Supplemental as from "JG1/11 List f 1203". Theoretically all four scores are from 15:05 through 15:15 and he was KIA going after number 5. So the time correlation is not great nor does a confirmation record by LW exist (hard for him to claim when he is dead)

 

[steve51]

drgondog,
Thanks for taking the time to give all that detail. Obviously if Frey really got 4 victories on that day, some other BG had to be involved.

 

[Erich]

might be good to pick up a copy of volume 2 JG 300 from Eagle-editions.com

you might be surprised as to what this Reich defense unit was capable of as well as IV.Sturm/JG 3 did on 27 September 1944. possibilities exist when the US escort system was not in place at the right time, this was extremely rare but it did happen. In regards to the above date I mentioned all 3 heavy Fw 190Gruppen were in an attack from the rear and JG 3 was to reach the poor 445th bg first shooting down 18 of the B-24's before the 361st fg could catch them which they did not as they has already hit the deck. I have studied the above operation at length for some 15 years and have found indeed the claims of the JG 3 come true sadly. Ossi Romm shot down 3 himself and his interview is placed in one of Alfred Prices books from years gone back but there is more to this story. Ossi selected his quarry on the side/flank if you will of the US bg and took out 3 B-24's in a slow methodical action as he flew forward.

also on 26 November 1944 which Bill knows full well about pilot Oberfeldwebel Hans Müller of 2./JG 301 flying a standard Fw 190A-8 with four 2cm weapons shot down 3 B-24's of the 491st bg. He started on the rear of the Bomb group and slowly moved his way forward before he banked off and hit the deck somehow avoiding the P-51's.

I would simply question Freys accts as well as Hermichens as the attacks were ,made from the front unless as stated earlier these pilots were able to run the risk of attacking following US bomb groups in succession. this is the only way this could of worked.

as to
Weals book they are forced/pushed into publication without primary sources as background he has used old lists copied which need revamping and other books already written that need a good clean-up

 

[drgondog]

Steve - that was my conclusion, and based on time, probably included a group behind the 388th, reaching the Dutch border ~ 1505.

 

[drgondog]

Erich - no question re: ability to shoot down four. The reason I looked at Frey's was because it was 6 March, 1944 before the Sturm A7 and A8 were used (IIRC).

Frey can't be faulted for over claiming as he was KIA at ~ 1520. So his wingman or other members of the Staffel he led turned in the scores.

 

[drgondog]

Eric - quick question. What are the facts about both direction from which IV./JG3 attacked the 492nd/44th/392nd on 7 July?

I know the 14th CW flew ese from Minden to a point close to Sonderhausen due east of Halle and somewhere near that point the 2nd BD split for their different targets. The 2nd CW went straight for Halle, the 95th went n-ne to Aschersleben, the 14th went ne to Bernburg and the 96th went ese to Lutzkendorf.

The first attack was by 410s and 109s from direction of Nordhausen when the trail (14th/95th) of bomb division was flying through Sonderhausen. The 4th FG was covering the ass end and intercepted this attack - but left Bernburg force uncovered.

The IV./JG3 and JG300 piled on during the bomb run from Sondershausen to Bernburg. I am pretty sure but not positive that these fighters came from ne, swung behind the 492nd just as they were nearing Bernburg and hit them from 5-7 O'clock. Dahl says they hit from the rear but he is not clear whether on bomb run or just after as the 14th CW swung north, then west afterwards. Moritz allegedly says they hit from head on. only one can be right about the 492nd as 7 went down short of Bernburg and several afterwards which I identified as 'limp off's".

 

[steve51]

Erich,
I assume the book you are recommending is the one by Lorant and Goyat. I found it on Amazon and ordered it.
Thanks for those examples of confirmed multiple victories by Romm and Muller. Your point about attacking from the rear of the bombers giving a greater chance of multiple successes makes sense. I need to learn more about the Strum Gruppen. Actually, there are many things for me to learn about!

 

[Erich]

Steve yes there is much in older posts about certain operational dates for the LW vs. the US..

Bill yes the IV.Sturm attacked before JG 300 did on 7 July 44 all from the rear. this was the first attack in unison by the Sturmgruppen in the war. Dahls book is full of misconceptions on tactics. JG 3 claimed a silly 30 bombers this date but did in effect attack more than just the 492nd bg on the 7th of July 44. I will have to dig but have a fat data file just of this mission alone. If I remember right the 15th AF also came way up north and the Sturmgruppen also attacked them which added to the overall totals which were still inflated to boost LW pilot morale and the home folks

 

[drgondog]

Erich - thanks. Based on what you just told me, it seems that Dahl's account of the general attack of IV./JG3 hitting from the rear (in a southwest to northeast track) before Stab. and II./JG300 Fw's hit shortly afterwards. The damage was done initially during the bomb run and then Moritz's Fw190s mopped up through the Rally point as the 392nd, 44th and 492nd circled back to the west toward Halberstadt?

I have 20 total B-24s lost to 14th CW, (1 to mid air collision with a 2CW B-24 coming off Halle, and two limp offs that crashed in western germany/Holland on the way home) so 17 were downed around Bernburg - at least two of those to flak. One way or another 17 B-24s were flat shot down... one shared with flak battery and three between 389th, 458 and 489th attcking Halle, Lutzkendorf and Aschersleben respectively.

In all, the 2nd BD lost 28 B-24s, and at least 20 to German fighters, four to mid air collisions (two over Holland, two between bernburg and Halle), three due to flak and one combo flak/fighter.

The US Fighter Gps were 355th protecting the lead box of 2CW at Halle, the 20th supporting the second box attacking Halle, the 339th protecting 96th at Lutzendorf and the 4th FG had Aschersleben/Bernburg (95th and 14th CW),

 

[Erich]

think you are on it Bill ! without my data in front of me cannot say where the US 15th AF came into the picture, did think around the area Bernberg as a mix up with the 8th AF, the losses mounted of course. Me 410's came into the fray and claimed bombers but think all claims were from "heavy" Sturm Fw's. from what I remember IV.Sturm/JG 3 placed two different attacks one on the 8th and then later on the 15th AF bombers. Again I will have to do a search to be positive.......

Neil and I did a page or two just on the 7th of July so wonder if the materials are somewhere hidden on the net or just plain gone into cyberspace ?

 

[syscom3]

I asked Erich on whether the LW was using twin engined day fighters this late in the war. His response was;

"yes actually ZG 26 and 76 were flying the Me 410 and the Bf 110G-2 till the end of July 44 then the transfer in name to JG 76 and flying Fw 190A-8's. ZG 26 personell went into a variety of LW day fighter units.

II./ZG 1 flew the Bf 110G-2 all the way till the end of August 1944 against the US 15th air force until they were basically wiped out, with or without high cover of JG 27 109's."

 

[drgondog]

II./ZG26 transferred in late July to II./JG6. After ~ two weeks transition to Fw 190A8 they went to battle invasion forces and mostly were KIA, including Ltn Rudi Dassow Stab. II./ZG26 and top Me 410 ace, in a battle w/9th AF P-38s.

The 355th FG took large chunks out of ZG26 on May 13, June 20 and July 7..despite high cover 109s from JG300..the only 355th loss in any of those battles was one KIA on 7 July due to colliding with an Me 410 engine after it blew up.

The Me 410 was formidable against unescorted B-17/24s but had very slim chance against the P-51 or P-38.

 

[drgondog]

Eric - forgot to reply re: 15th AF from south. They did come for Obertal and Blechammer and apparently suprised by continued progress north into Silesia. I./ZG76, II./ZG1 and I./JG 302 were primary foces chasing them and only about 40 Fw 190/Me 109s from an OTU gruppe were able to meet them at Blechammer.

 

[Erich]

Bill the Fw's were part of the Sturmgruppen. ZG 26 and 76 personell went to form the backbone in August of 44 of II.Sturm/JG 4 as well as the two day fighter units we described that were wiped out by US escorts over the coming months of 44 into early 45 making them 0 effective in due course...... ZG 1 had Bf 110G-2's and JG 302 had Bf 109G-6's.

 

[drgondog]

Erich - I apologise for hijacking this thread re: Strumgruppen. I have looked at all the macrs for 2nd BD, plus encounter reports for 4th, 20th, 339th, and 355th FG and two things are becoming much clearer if we believe Tony Woods did not make gross errors on recording times and places for each of the recorded credits on 2nd BD.

1. Most of the 492nd BG Macrs have a time stamp of 0928 on the bomb run to Bernburg.. All the IV./JG3 credits were 12-15 minutes later from 0940-0943 near Oscherlseben.
2. Most of the II./JG300 credits were from 0930-0940 from NW Halle, Eisleben, S Calbe, Artern - along and on either side of the line from Sonderhause (IP) to Bernburg (target) on an e-ne track
3. The long list of B-24 credits is JG3 at Oschersleben, along the return path from Bernburg.

The II./JG300 fw190s and the IV./J3 fw 190s reportedly entered the combat area 'from the ne".

If Woods is true and we believe all the 2nd BD watches were consistently off by 5+ minutes from their LW counterparts, then the below is the best sequence I can come up with.

II./JG300 hit the 392nd and maybe the 44th BG on the bomb run to Bernburg - head on passes from ene to the bombers headed e-ne.

The 389th pathfinder coming off Halle to the se, swung into the oncoming Bernburg force, narrowly missing one of the 492nd B-24s then T boned the second and both go down between Halle/Bernburg and Eisleben.

The 44th in tail end charlie position behind the 492nd in the middle, veers to inside to avoid the 389th pathfinder. All the rest of the Halle force (2nd CW) has bombed Halle, assembled at Rally point below Bernburg and is heading wsw parallel but opposite 14th CW.

492nd bombs Bernburg at this time (0928) and swing up and around to the wnw to assemble with the rest of 2nd BD north of Halberstadt. One Macr at 0928 records the attack as '7mi ene of Sonderhausen' which is a very specific location from the IP to Bernburg but a pretty far stretch from Berburg ~ 40milies and 15 minutes from there. It was hit by Me 410 @ ~ 0910, but shot down 15 minutes later.

The IV./JG3 fw190s struck as 492nd was leaving the target and headed toward Oschersleben - JG3 records time as 0940-0943, 492nd BG records the time at 0928-0930 with several cripples crashing from Bernburg to Egeln to "24km sw of Magdeburg to Oschersleben to Halberstadt to Dieplholz to Ems River".

Short answer - IV./JG3 was the second major Fw 190A8 attack as the 492nd was running home from Bernburg.

Do you see a flaw in the logic?

 

[Erich]

yes both US and LW are both flawed Bill and yes pardon for carrying on with the hi-jack of the thread. Blitzschlacht über Oschersleben is what the aerial op was called by the two Sturmgruppen and it's protective cover by I./JG 300 Bf 109G-6's. all other LW formations were immaterial to the US bomber losses this date. Me 410's claimed kills but in fact were from the Sturmgruppen.

even the notes I have from the German pilots are not 100 % accurate with degree..........what else is new and of course the biggie is agreeing with US times of attack duration of the bomb run and return to England.

Stab and II.Sturm/JG 300 flew off with IV.Sturm/JG 3 but it was not a unified attack as the JG 300 section flew to the east attacking in their words a large B-24 pulk in the area of Halberstedt/Bernburg/Sangerhausen. IV. JG 3 Fw's hit the 492nd bg from the rear over Oschersleben. and with these two attacks both Sturmgruppen became intermixed.

I./JG 300 Bf 109G's mixed it up with P-51's between Bitterfeld/Leipzig.

III./JG 300 was protecting Me 410's of I. and II./ZG 26 which did make claims but I have found no proof of these all claims would of been under SturmFw jurisdiction. the 492nd bg lost 12 B-24's to IV./JG 3 alone and the SturmFw unit claimed a total of 26 B-24's as total for a loss of 4 Fw 190's. What other US bomber units the IV./JG 3 attacked I am not sure possibly the 44th bg ?

II./JG 300 Fw pilots put in claims for 12 bombers and were given credit for 8.

as to P-51 claims it appears that only the Me 410's of ZG 26 were given credit of 2 of which they had first claimed 6. II./JG 5 in the area claimed 2 B-24's and 2 P-51's and my opinion they were given official credit for 0.

this is all in brief Bill obviously as I have not really sorted out the multiple pages I have on tab.

 

[steve51]

drgondog and Erich,
Carry on with the tread hi-jacking all you need. The posts from both of you are fascinating.