I would have shot my parents if they had named me that.
MV-22 Osprey
- Thread starter mkloby
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twoeagles
Senior Airman
Quoted from "Inside the Navy":
V-22 DESERT TESTING FINDS PROBLEMS THAT HURT MISSION EFFECTIVENESS: The V-22 Osprey, which may deploy to Iraq with Marines this year, suffered problems that hurt its mission effectiveness when the Air Force tested it for a month in the New Mexico desert, according to a new report from the Pentagon's top weapons tester. The problems are described in the latest annual report from the Defense Department's operational testing directorate, led by Charles McQueary. The V-22 is a helicopter-plane hybrid developed by Bell Helicopter Textron and Boeing. During an "operational utility evaluation" conducted last summer in the desert at Kirtland Air Force Base, NM, the effectiveness of the Osprey for training missions and potential combat missions was "degraded by poor aircraft availability," says the report, issued January 18. "Frequent part and system failures, limited supply support, and high false alarm rates in the built-in diagnostic systems caused frequent flight delays and an excessive maintenance workload," the report says. Some of the reliability problems "may be attributable to the extended exposure to the desert operating environment" where the assessment occurred, says the report. The Osprey provided only "marginal operational availability" during the 41 flights (74 flight hours), the report says. The report urges the V-22 program to correct the deficiencies noted in the "operational utility evaluation" before the CV-22 begins its initial operational testing and evaluation in FY08. The report also calls on the program to monitor the operational suitability of the Marine Corps' Block B version of the Osprey, which is due to deploy this year, to determine the "discrepancy" between the solid performance reported in the operational evaluation of the Marine Corps version and the problems now coming to light. James Darcy, the Navy's spokesman for the V-22 program, said program officials do not believe these issues will delay fielding plans for the Marine Corps or Air Force versions of the Osprey. (Christopher J. Castelli, Inside The Navy – 1/22)
V-22 DESERT TESTING FINDS PROBLEMS THAT HURT MISSION EFFECTIVENESS: The V-22 Osprey, which may deploy to Iraq with Marines this year, suffered problems that hurt its mission effectiveness when the Air Force tested it for a month in the New Mexico desert, according to a new report from the Pentagon's top weapons tester. The problems are described in the latest annual report from the Defense Department's operational testing directorate, led by Charles McQueary. The V-22 is a helicopter-plane hybrid developed by Bell Helicopter Textron and Boeing. During an "operational utility evaluation" conducted last summer in the desert at Kirtland Air Force Base, NM, the effectiveness of the Osprey for training missions and potential combat missions was "degraded by poor aircraft availability," says the report, issued January 18. "Frequent part and system failures, limited supply support, and high false alarm rates in the built-in diagnostic systems caused frequent flight delays and an excessive maintenance workload," the report says. Some of the reliability problems "may be attributable to the extended exposure to the desert operating environment" where the assessment occurred, says the report. The Osprey provided only "marginal operational availability" during the 41 flights (74 flight hours), the report says. The report urges the V-22 program to correct the deficiencies noted in the "operational utility evaluation" before the CV-22 begins its initial operational testing and evaluation in FY08. The report also calls on the program to monitor the operational suitability of the Marine Corps' Block B version of the Osprey, which is due to deploy this year, to determine the "discrepancy" between the solid performance reported in the operational evaluation of the Marine Corps version and the problems now coming to light. James Darcy, the Navy's spokesman for the V-22 program, said program officials do not believe these issues will delay fielding plans for the Marine Corps or Air Force versions of the Osprey. (Christopher J. Castelli, Inside The Navy – 1/22)
As I suspected (and the reason I am not a fan of her) she is a maintaners nightmare.
twoeagles
Senior Airman
It makes you wonder just what the Marines were doing different in their
OPEVAL than the Air Force...Is the USAF CV-22 very different than the
USMC V-22 that would cause so many negatives in their desert testing?
OPEVAL than the Air Force...Is the USAF CV-22 very different than the
USMC V-22 that would cause so many negatives in their desert testing?
I dont think that there can be much of a difference. An Osprey is an Osprey.
- Thread starter
- #106
mkloby
Senior Master Sergeant
I do know that the Marine program is about a year ahead of the USAF CV-22program. VMX-22 finished a testing program entailing almost 1000 flight hours, and from the actual officers in the MV-22 community, it is on it's way. We shall see how it turns out. I tend to think that it will not be as bad as the naysayers believe...
It is a mechanical nightmare mkloby...
- Thread starter
- #108
mkloby
Senior Master Sergeant
We'll see how it turns out in service. Of course, that remains to be seen, and only time will tell. Complex - you bet, but not condemned.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
As a pilot or crewman, that part right there sums it up for me....2eagles said:
System Failures??? In a bird like that???
Fu*k that....
- Thread starter
- #110
mkloby
Senior Master Sergeant
The Marine Squadrons have not had those types of failures for a while now. You have to take magazine articles with some salt - I take the word of the pilots in the squadrons over magazine reports.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
So do I....
But that quote is from an Official Report from the Defense Department's Operational Testing Directorate, so it does hold some validity....
And as a question, the fellow pilots that u talked to, did they happen to have any harsh desert condition flight hours???
But that quote is from an Official Report from the Defense Department's Operational Testing Directorate, so it does hold some validity....
And as a question, the fellow pilots that u talked to, did they happen to have any harsh desert condition flight hours???
- Thread starter
- #112
mkloby
Senior Master Sergeant
Let me get back to you on the nature/environment of the USMC tests done by VMX-22, because I don't know the exact details...
American Desert or Middle Eastern Desert. 2 completly different animals.
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
True true, and since having been in both of them, I rate the desert of the middle east a worse enviornment...
lesofprimus
Brigadier General
Just got this emailed to me from Military.com
Hoping to re-energize congressional opposition to the Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey, critics of the controversial tilt-rotor aircraft released a study Thursday warning that the aircraft is plagued by inherent design flaws and will endanger U.S. lives when it goes into combat this year.
The study, commissioned by the Center for Defense Information, a Washington think tank, calls for Congress to scrap the V-22 and replace it with a lower-costing helicopter capable of performing similar missions, although it would be slower.
Co-manufactured by Bell Helicopter Textron of Fort Worth and Boeing Helicopters of Ridley Park, Pa., the Osprey was near cancellation early in the decade after four crashes killed 30. Two crashes occurred in 2000, resulting in 23 deaths.
The program has rebounded after a redesign and more than 19,000 hours of flight tests.
It now has strong support in Congress as Marines move toward sending the first V-22 squadrons into combat -- possibly Iraq or Afghanistan -- by the summer.
But the center's study, "V-22: Wonder Weapon or Widow Maker?" warns that the hybrid aircraft still has "operational, aerodynamic and survivability challenges that will prove insurmountable, and lethal, in combat."
"We're trying to alert the system that the problems haven't gone away," said Winslow Wheeler, director of the center's Straus Military Reform Project, which monitors military and national-security issues.
The report prompted a scathing rebuttal from the V-22 manufacturing team and its defenders in the military, who contended that the study rehashed problems that have been corrected.
"It really baffles us as to why this organization would come out with an anti-V-22 diatribe when clearly the aircraft is performing well," Bell-Boeing spokesman Bob Leder said. "Apparently, they just used a lot of out-of-date information -- or disinformation."
Among other points, the study says the V-22 remains susceptible to a dangerous aerodynamic phenomenon known as a vortex ring state, which occurs when a rotor becomes enmeshed in its own downwash and loses lift.
V-22 pilots, under pressure to avoid enemy gunfire, run the risk of triggering a vortex ring by descending too fast under combat conditions, said Lee Gaillard, a Philadelphia science and military writer who authored the report. Rapid descent vertically or at low forward air speed "creates conditions ripe for VRS," the report said.
"If the Osprey goes into combat, it may cause its own casualties," Gaillard said in outlining the report at a Center for Defense Information briefing.
A vortex ring state was blamed for one of the crashes in 2000.
But James Darcy of the Navy's V-22 Joint Program Office said testing and review have proven that the V-22 is far less vulnerable to vortex rings than traditional helicopters and can easily speed through the turbulent air by tilting the engines forward.
The Marine Corps plans to buy 360 MV-22s to replace aging helicopters to speed troops and supplies into combat.
The Air Force plans to buy 50 CV-22s for special operations, and the Navy plans to buy 48 Ospreys for rescue operations.
Hoping to re-energize congressional opposition to the Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey, critics of the controversial tilt-rotor aircraft released a study Thursday warning that the aircraft is plagued by inherent design flaws and will endanger U.S. lives when it goes into combat this year.
The study, commissioned by the Center for Defense Information, a Washington think tank, calls for Congress to scrap the V-22 and replace it with a lower-costing helicopter capable of performing similar missions, although it would be slower.
Co-manufactured by Bell Helicopter Textron of Fort Worth and Boeing Helicopters of Ridley Park, Pa., the Osprey was near cancellation early in the decade after four crashes killed 30. Two crashes occurred in 2000, resulting in 23 deaths.
The program has rebounded after a redesign and more than 19,000 hours of flight tests.
It now has strong support in Congress as Marines move toward sending the first V-22 squadrons into combat -- possibly Iraq or Afghanistan -- by the summer.
But the center's study, "V-22: Wonder Weapon or Widow Maker?" warns that the hybrid aircraft still has "operational, aerodynamic and survivability challenges that will prove insurmountable, and lethal, in combat."
"We're trying to alert the system that the problems haven't gone away," said Winslow Wheeler, director of the center's Straus Military Reform Project, which monitors military and national-security issues.
The report prompted a scathing rebuttal from the V-22 manufacturing team and its defenders in the military, who contended that the study rehashed problems that have been corrected.
"It really baffles us as to why this organization would come out with an anti-V-22 diatribe when clearly the aircraft is performing well," Bell-Boeing spokesman Bob Leder said. "Apparently, they just used a lot of out-of-date information -- or disinformation."
Among other points, the study says the V-22 remains susceptible to a dangerous aerodynamic phenomenon known as a vortex ring state, which occurs when a rotor becomes enmeshed in its own downwash and loses lift.
V-22 pilots, under pressure to avoid enemy gunfire, run the risk of triggering a vortex ring by descending too fast under combat conditions, said Lee Gaillard, a Philadelphia science and military writer who authored the report. Rapid descent vertically or at low forward air speed "creates conditions ripe for VRS," the report said.
"If the Osprey goes into combat, it may cause its own casualties," Gaillard said in outlining the report at a Center for Defense Information briefing.
A vortex ring state was blamed for one of the crashes in 2000.
But James Darcy of the Navy's V-22 Joint Program Office said testing and review have proven that the V-22 is far less vulnerable to vortex rings than traditional helicopters and can easily speed through the turbulent air by tilting the engines forward.
The Marine Corps plans to buy 360 MV-22s to replace aging helicopters to speed troops and supplies into combat.
The Air Force plans to buy 50 CV-22s for special operations, and the Navy plans to buy 48 Ospreys for rescue operations.
Matt308
Glock Perfection
Latest AvWeek has an article on the nextgen helicopter technology. Apparently, "new technology" making use of single shaft dual counter-rotating rotors and pusher propellers is providing a 250mph class helicopter. That's about 45mph faster than current max design speed for some helicopters (I think the CH-47 has a 200+mph max speed). While that did not strike me as "new technology" (counter rotating rotors are currently used by Kaman and Kamov and pusher technology is has been around since late 40s), it is interesting that this validation was published.
AvWeek also posted funded V-22 airframes through 2011, I think. Looked to be about 120 or so if I recall correctly.
AvWeek also posted funded V-22 airframes through 2011, I think. Looked to be about 120 or so if I recall correctly.
- Thread starter
- #117
mkloby
Senior Master Sergeant
Couldn't get any specifics regarding the desert package from the USMC opeval of the MV-22. There were extensive desert trials done - as well as other joint exercises. I called up a buddy that's a CH-46E guy, currently in the Fleet Replacement Squadron out at Camp Pendleton, because some of the higher ups there are already qualified in the MV-22. I'll see what he says when he gets back to me.
To the best of my knowledge, the Navy isn't going to go ahead with their HV-22 program, but I could be wrong.
We may just have to wait to see how the maintainability fares in the desert when they deploy the Thunder Chickens to Iraq the end of this year or 2008...
To the best of my knowledge, the Navy isn't going to go ahead with their HV-22 program, but I could be wrong.
We may just have to wait to see how the maintainability fares in the desert when they deploy the Thunder Chickens to Iraq the end of this year or 2008...
There was an artical in the Stars and Stripes a few days ago about the MV-22. It was saying that there are many people in the Osprey Program who do not think that it is ready to go into service. It is still plauged with problems and it would be deadly to put her into service. Aparantly the DOD really wants it to go into Service immediatly and is blowing them off.
Glider
Captain
I wonder if those in the DOD who are trying to push it through would be so keen if they were the ones flying in it. When desk jockeys start to impose their will on the engineers and experts I start to worry.
I think it will turn out to be a great aircraft, but I think it needs to be tested some more and worked on. Also the guys that are going to fix it need a pay raise. 
