In some ways similar to our own navy before NATOPS. Every squadron and every air group had their own tactics, procedures, and communications protocols, which had to be learned and relearned with every transfer. But at least in USN, these transfers were frequent enough to engender a certain amount of mental flexibility. Not so in the Japanese system, where crewmembers tended to stay with the same ship/air wing/squadron indefinitely. Given the lack of electronic communication, and the use of signals, being on the same page would be crucial to tactical success.
Nice CGI from IJN perspective
- Thread starter Admiral Beez
- Start date
Well, they were only up against two American carriers, weren't they? And not very competent ones either, right? Four vs two, that oughta do!
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Thank you jetcal1. I have always been of the opinion USN damage control has been the major "trick up its sleeve" against all comers. It's why U.S.S. Yorktown CV-5, won the Battle of Midway. Yes, I said it!
It's one of the many reasons why I hold U.S.S. Yorktown with the same regard as H.M.S. Warspite does for our "cousins". Captain Buckmaster, as the story goes, listened to one of his ratings about damage control equipment. The fog nozzle was developed (I don't know how true that is). I have read the Captain was instrumental in damage control procedures, such as emptying fuel lines and filling them with co2.
Yorktown took part in various early raids and her crews were definitely the first team. She struck the enemy and was struck. Her crew got her going and absorbed the second attack sparing U.S.S. Enterprise and U.S.S. Hornet. And then she struck again. Her planes with the the Enterprise groups. This was the catastrophe of leaving Zuikaku at home for the IJN.
Hmmm. This just occurred to me. Could The Battle of Midway have been the battle of the damage control parties?
It's one of the many reasons why I hold U.S.S. Yorktown with the same regard as H.M.S. Warspite does for our "cousins". Captain Buckmaster, as the story goes, listened to one of his ratings about damage control equipment. The fog nozzle was developed (I don't know how true that is). I have read the Captain was instrumental in damage control procedures, such as emptying fuel lines and filling them with co2.
Yorktown took part in various early raids and her crews were definitely the first team. She struck the enemy and was struck. Her crew got her going and absorbed the second attack sparing U.S.S. Enterprise and U.S.S. Hornet. And then she struck again. Her planes with the the Enterprise groups. This was the catastrophe of leaving Zuikaku at home for the IJN.
Hmmm. This just occurred to me. Could The Battle of Midway have been the battle of the damage control parties?
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
I know, right?
Isn't it basic War 101 to be there the firstest with the mostest? You know, shock and awe?
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Never underestimate your enemy.
Possibly the "weakness" of Shokaku and Zuikaku saved them as their sides blew out when hit (a "flaw" that also apparently saved US carriers from fatal damage), Akagi and Kaga (based off British Battlecruisers) died very easily. But i'm way beyond my knowledge here 
P.S. fun fact, the picture of late war Japanese graveyard planes above, probably post surrender pile ups, contains many 13.2mm nose gun Zero's (larger vertical ejection port vs more horizontal small ejection port for 7.7mm). (fun fact #2, Zero changed from 0.30" to 0.50" almost same time as Spifire did mid'44!)
Purely from a war nerd viewpoint its disappointing the original 6 fleet IJN carriers didn't get to fight together again.
P.S. fun fact, the picture of late war Japanese graveyard planes above, probably post surrender pile ups, contains many 13.2mm nose gun Zero's (larger vertical ejection port vs more horizontal small ejection port for 7.7mm). (fun fact #2, Zero changed from 0.30" to 0.50" almost same time as Spifire did mid'44!)
Purely from a war nerd viewpoint its disappointing the original 6 fleet IJN carriers didn't get to fight together again.
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
The sides blowing out of HIJMS Shokaku and Zuikaku were probably design flaws as the IJN built armored hangars. The unarmored American hangars with a wooden flight deck on top could be easily opened up and ventilate or ditch munitions quickly when there are fumes or smoke.Possibly the "weakness" of Shokaku and Zuikaku saved them as their sides blew out when hit (a "flaw" that also apparently saved US carriers from fatal damage), Akagi and Kaga (based off British Battlecruisers) died very easily. But i'm way beyond my knowledge here
P.S. fun fact, the picture of late war Japanese graveyard planes above, probably post surrender pile ups, contains many 13.2mm nose gun Zero's (larger vertical ejection port vs more horizontal small ejection port for 7.7mm). (fun fact #2, Zero changed from 0.30" to 0.50" almost same time as Spifire did mid'44!)
Purely from a war nerd viewpoint its disappointing the original 6 fleet IJN carriers didn't get to fight together again.
The YouTube site Drachinifel has great videos of this stuff. Check out the one on Armoured vs Unarmoured aircraft carriers.
Every naval battle since time immemorial has been a battle of the damage control parties. Not as glamorous as battering rams, 32 pounder cannons, and dive bombers, but frequently the decisive element.
Sun Tzu say: "Half-assed leader bring half-assed force to battle, get full-ass kicking!"
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
Ya got that right.
- Thread starter
- #71
Admiral Beez
Major
Agreed. The IJN should have waited to begin their Midway plan until all six were ready. Shōkaku was repaired and returned to service July 14, 1942. Zuikaku was undamaged and just needed to replenish its CAG. For god sake's Yamamoto, just wait six weeks.
And maximize your fleet of fast carriers... keep the 28 knot CVL Zuihō and her 30 aircraft with Nagumo. You can still send the slow carrier Hōshō (and the absent?!) CVL Jun'yō with the landing force. Imagine Nagumo with six or seven fast carriers!
Best two websites on this topic, Kido Butai! Operational Histories of Japanese Carriers | Nihon Kaigun and World Aircraft Carriers List: Japanese Aircraft Carriers
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According to Shattered Sword they kept losing so the umpires got involved to make Admiral Yamato happy.
Your welcome. Keep in mind Damage Control (DC) is really a pretty odd combination of learn as you go, Darwinian in nature with a roll of the dice thrown in. We probably weren't significantly different from any other Navy until after the battle for the Solomons. We learned a lot off of Guadalcanal.
Yup. Read that too. Exercise in collective self delusion.
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- Thread starter
- #75
Admiral Beez
Major
Can you elaborate on what the "American" side was doing that was rejected? Was it close to what the USN actually did?
SaparotRob
Unter Gemeine Geschwader Murmeltier XIII
In one gaming session, it was just about the exact same tactics that the Americans actually used, less one American flattop.
And in more than one case the "American" forces sortied from Pearl Harbor sooner than decreed by Yamamoto's timeline.
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Now, see, this is the problem. Americans don't get the rest of the world, because in the rest of the world uncertainty is the only certainty and most of us have learned to live with it. The rest of the world tolerates the USA because it has no choice, just like it does other superpowers, but it is ironic that the superpowers (not just the USA) display disproportionate degrees of inflexibility when dealing with outher countries because of their absolute attitudes. Sigh.
Well, at Coral Sea and Midway our DC performed better than the Japanese.
