Nigger’s (Dog’s name) grave at RAF Scampton.

[ian lanc]

Guys just thought I'd tell you lot if you don't already know this, but Niggers headstone has been changed and they've removed the name 'Nigger'

It's not Negro or Nigga and the dogs name was called Nigger and was not being racist, around the Bomber Command Community everyone is enraged over this.

 

[fubar57]

Sadly history is being erased for many wrong reasons

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I don't want this to go political. Here's a reference of the word and how it evolved.

Nigger - Wikipedia

With that said I can understand the frustrations by many as we now enter a world where attempts to make things right with some peoples are being done at history's expense.

I am probably a descendant of Christopher Columbus, not very popular to admit these days but I cannot deny who I am. At the same time my DNA reveals that I am almost 10% indigenous, more than likely Taíno, which was basically bred out of existence by Spanish settlers. Am I bitter or upset about this? No. Would I accept racism or even genocide in today's world? Of course not.

I don't think we can judge people's actions of the past (especially if they happened generations ago) by the standards and norms of today's world.

(stepping off soap box)

 

[GrauGeist]

I agree that the rush to "clean" history is unfortunate and (in my opinion, at least) tragic.
What it does, is eliminates the legacy of those that suffered as well as diminishes the impact of those events on today's society, who live in a far safer environment and have the luxury of judging past society from the comfort of their coffee shops and classrooms.

Sadly, I've been judged by my appearance without them taking the time to know my ancestry and if they did, they would soon find that I have a great deal of Sioux ancestry who were FAR less than kind to their neighbors than my Germanic or Scottish ancestors were...

 

[MIflyer]

Anyone ever hear about what happened when that dog died?

Of course Guy Gibson's dog survived longer than he did. His widow took the dog and moved to South Africa after the war. One night she heard a distinctive whistle, the same whistle Guy Gibson used to call his dog, The dog stood up and then dropped dead. Guy was calling his beloved dog home to him.

 

[stona]

Guys just thought I'd tell you lot if you don't already know this, but Niggers headstone has been changed and they've removed the name 'Nigger'

It's not Negro or Nigga and the dogs name was called Nigger and was not being racist, around the Bomber Command Community everyone is enraged over this.

Nigger and Darkie were both very popular names for black dogs at the time, and later. I remember a friend of the family had a labrador called Darkie when I was a youngster in the early 1960s.
Nobody would use those names today, and quite rightly too. However, there is a word that historians use for the fallacy of viewing history through the lens of today's morality. It's presentism, and this is an example of the worst kind.

It wasn't just the bloody dog either! It was also the codeword transmitted to confirm the breach of the Mohne (?*) dam.

_. .. _ _. _ _ . . ._. There you go, I said it.

* I'm going from memory here.

 

[pbehn]

I find it upsetting that they still call it a dog, so many negative associations.

 

[GrauGeist]

My grandfather had a German Shepherd named "Blackie" and he was as black as the ace of spades.

I recall Blackie from when I was a child and to be honest, a jet-black Shepherd is a bit scary.

 

[CORSNING]

In the attempt to remove the past by some, that will provides us with a path
which may allow us to forget and then repeat.

 

[AMCKen]

Anyone ever hear about what happened when that dog died?

Of course Guy Gibson's dog survived longer than he did. His widow took the dog and moved to South Africa after the war. One night she heard a distinctive whistle, the same whistle Guy Gibson used to call his dog, The dog stood up and then dropped dead. Guy was calling his beloved dog home to him.

Nigger was killed by a car on May 15th before the raid. So Gibson lived longer than his dog.

 

[MIflyer]

Well, if it wasn't Gibson's dog, whose was it? I guess maybe he got another dog after he lost the one on 15 May.

It appears that Guy Gibson was trying to mark a target with a Mossie that had not been loaded with target markers the night he was lost. The machine assigned to him went U/S and he insisted on taking another one, right away, apparently not realizing it was not a loaded back-up.

 

[ian lanc]

It wasn't just the bloody dog either! It was also the codeword transmitted to confirm the breach of the Mohne (?*) dam.

I already know that, just wasn't going to go there.

 

[pbehn]

My grandfather had a German Shepherd named "Blackie" and he was as black as the ace of spades.

I recall Blackie from when I was a child and to be honest, a jet-black Shepherd is a bit scary.

"German Shepherd" dogs were officially known as "Alsatians" in UK from n WW1 until 1977.

 

[TheRealMrEd]

To paraphrase: "Those who do not consult their history are doomed to repeat it"...

Ed

 

[Gnomey]

It's unfortunate consequence of what's happening currently...

 

[ThomasP]

Sorry, but this is going to be a long post.

Possibly you will find this interesting.

Here in Minnesota we have had a recent example of what we are discussing in this thread.

For those of you not familiar with my state, it is often called the land of 10,000 lakes (there are actually a lot more lakes within our borders than that). One of those lakes has recently become a point of contention between various groups in the state.

The lake in question has for the last ~200 years been called Lake Calhoun, named after John C. Calhoun. It was named after Calhoun largely because he was a famous politician, having served in the South Carolina Senate, the US Senate, as US Secretary of State, and as US Vice-President from 1825-1832 under Presidents John Quincy Adams and Andrew Jackson (this was back when the vice-president was appointed by the Electoral College).

Over the years, amongst his normal political activities, he became a bastion of pro-slavery, pro-imperialism, pro-genocide (of the Native American indigenous population), and eventually somewhat anti-US (Federal) government. He died in 1850, about 10 years before the American Civil War, so it is not possible to say if he would have been on the side of pro-secession (ie the South) or pro-union (ie the North).

Naming things after famous politicians has been normal, and acceptable, since at least as long as recorded history (ie more than 5,000 years) so there was nothing wrong with the European descended settlers naming the lake 'Lake Calhoun'. Although Native Americans lived in the area and had there own name for it (Mde Maka Ska aka Lake of White Earth) the renaming had no real effect on the indigenous population since they were not required in any way to use or honor the name. The local settlers of European descent of the time knew the lake as B'de Maka Ska (they had a difficult time pronouncing Mde). The lake was the lake. (This was around 1820 and there were no black slaves in the area at that time, although there was a small number of Native American slaves kept by some of the settlers.)

Eventually, the local Native Americans were either forced to move far away, killed, or rounded up and put on reservation (the White Earth Reservation is one that still exists today). The city of Minneapolis grew up around the lake (illegally appropriating most of its land from the White Earth Reservation), and at some point in time it became a requirement (by law) that the lake be referred to as Lake Calhoun.

Calhoun was a slave owner (owning somewhere around 100 at the time of his death) and was actively in favor of slavery. He was also in favor of killing and/or enslaving the Native American, and it was during his tenure as Secretary of War and Vice-President that the beginning of the planned removal or extermination of the Native American population in all US territories began.

This all happened a long time ago, between 170 and 200 years ago. But, it is important to remember that there are African-Americans alive today who's [great-grand]parents were slaves, and Native Americans who's [great-grand]parents were killed by the US Army, under Calhoun's tenure in Federal government.

The descendants of these slaves and Native Americans have no objection to remembering the history of what occurred 200 years ago. They do object to the people of today venerating Calhoun and perpetuating the idea that Calhoun was a fine upstanding human being.

The current situation here in Minnesota, the US as a whole, and other countries, can (I think) be compared to what happened at the end of WWII and afterward. The idea that tearing down the statues and emblems of the Nazi regime is somehow an act of Jewish (or anyone's) revisionist history, or attempting to hide the real history, would be laughed at by anyone sane. How is what is going on relative to slavery and genocide (by the US or other countries) or hundreds of years of racism (by the US or other countries) any different?

Please do not misunderstand me, I agree that the beginning example of this thread (ie objecting to the inscription on the dogs grave) might be silly - particularly if the objectors realized it was a dog. Do we know if anyone of darker skinned ethnicity actually did object to it?

Objection to the renaming of a lake by a 100% 'white' segment of the general population could also be considered silly. But it took a popular movement to get it started, continuing the movement for over 3 years, and defeating a lawsuit filed by people who opposed the name change that went all the way to the Minnesota Supreme Court, before the name could be changed officially.

I'll put my horse back in the barn now.

 

[Ivan1GFP]

About 30 years ago, I was in Hong Kong. I was quite amazed when I found "Darkie" brand toothpaste.
It had a green, white and black package with a smiling black black faced minstrel type face in a top hat on the package.
I had to buy a couple tubes to take home with me and can probably still find one to photograph if anyone is interested.
I asked my hosts about the name for the brand and what they thought about the racist connotations.
They were pretty matter of fact in their response: Black people have whiter teeth than everyone else, right? So if you also want to have white teeth like THEM, use this brand of toothpaste..... That was the logic of the naming.

I found it again in a Chinese grocery several years ago. It is now called "Darlie". The colours are the same for the package but the face is no longer shaped like a big grinning black face minstrel. It looks more like a black skinned white man (no negro features) in a top hat.

- Ivan.

 

[GrauGeist]

But, it important to remember that there are African-Americans alive today who's parents were slaves,

Just going to step in here for a moment and point something out.

I'm 57 years old and I knew my Great Grandparents as a child and they were born in the 1880's.
The 13th amendment was ratified on 6 December 1865, making it very unlikely that anyone today had parents who were alive prior to 1865.

 

[ThomasP]

Hey GrauGeist,

Sorry, you are correct. Thank you, I meant to say great-grandparents. Edited my original post.

 

[stona]

It seems to me that 'Overlord' has all sorts of connotations of supremacy, oppression and subjugation.

Maybe we should come up with a new name for the Battle of Normandy? I vote for 'Operation Inclusive'

Neptune was a god with several dislikeable traits, and was also a god to whom bulls were sacrificed. I'm sure none of us would support such animal cruelty. Perhaps the landings should also be renamed? How about 'Operation Paddling Pool'?