Actually there's a lot of threads out there that are throwing out arson,terrorists etc. The French inspectors/fire dept etc better make sure they nail the investigations because there's been what 10 church fires in France alone these past few weeks.
Notre Dame Paris on fire
- Thread starter Marcel
- Start date
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On 13th century midieval buildings in a congested urban center?
Yes.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Fixed wing or rotary?
michael rauls
Tech Sergeant
- 1,679
- Jul 15, 2016
Well a little good news. I heard today that they will be able to salvage the original structure and ultimately restore the rest although it will take years.
On 13th century midieval buildings in a congested urban center?
On, whatever needs be. One can govern the amount of drop, if so equipped.
Rotory
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
The original conversation was regarding water bombers, which was pointed out as being impracticable.
In an urban environment, it is virtually impossible for a fixed wing to make a pin-point drop on a single structure and even then, the volume may cause damage.
The only time I have seen fixed wing bombers make drops on structures, is when they were trying to create a line and the structures targeted were already involved and beyond saving.
Matter of fact, I saw way too much of that just this last year...
But helicopters can do.
I've done it. I've piloted it...released the load. Either as a one drop or governing drop.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
I'm fully aware of what helos can do.
But they are rarely used on urban structures. I posted a photo in post #32 of one making a drop on a building in Los Angeles, but that was a rare and isolated instance.
So it is possible but not practical in a metro/urban setting.
But they are rarely used on urban structures. I posted a photo in post #32 of one making a drop on a building in Los Angeles, but that was a rare and isolated instance.
So it is possible but not practical in a metro/urban setting.
Surely....can be done.
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
Again...see post #32
mikewint
Captain
This report was also on the evening news, i.e., that there was an initial alarm with no fire found and by the time of the second alarm the fire was already far advanced. Be interesting if accurate. If there was this initial alarm it would be very informative to know what type of detector alarmed. Smoldering fires and burning fires produce different types of particulates. In general ionization smoke alarms are best for detecting rapid flame fires while photoelectric smoke alarms protect against slower, smoldering fires. Often times malfunctioning detectors give several false alarms and responders tend to treat them as "the boy who cried wolf". One can only speculate on how different the outcome if that initial alarm had been located or responders remained on the scene a few minutes longer.
Generally speaking rapid-rise and/or fixed temp fire alarms are only employed in non-life-safety installations where the environment has too many airborne particulates due to excessive steam, moisture, dust, humidity or temperature, such as in attics, and garages. They tend to be tricky as the area may be subject to rapid temperature rises or high temperatures in the normal course of events like summer heating
The Basket
Senior Master Sergeant
- 3,712
- Jun 27, 2007
In some ways it's only a building so don't get too worked up. It can be rebuilt.
Odd that suddenly squillions of dollars have been pledged to its restoration.
Where were these guys when I needed 20p for a coffee? Nowhere that's where!
Although any kind of water bombing was unnecessary as there was plenty of water on tap for firefighting.
To be honest since my BAD experiences with my Citroën motorised vehicle a few years back, my French sympathy has taken a nosedive. I can easily vouch for shoddy French workmanship!
Odd that suddenly squillions of dollars have been pledged to its restoration.
Where were these guys when I needed 20p for a coffee? Nowhere that's where!
Although any kind of water bombing was unnecessary as there was plenty of water on tap for firefighting.
To be honest since my BAD experiences with my Citroën motorised vehicle a few years back, my French sympathy has taken a nosedive. I can easily vouch for shoddy French workmanship!
The fire alarms in my house have sounded off at me soldering in the bathroom, making toast, grilling cheese, and opening the oven door. One upstairs one downstairs they are not in a room but outside all rooms. In the roof of a cathedral which is all old dry wood if you have a proper fire it is probably too late to put it out without an automatic sprinkler system.
Shortround6
Major General
Churches, especially old ones, can be a real bitch to inspect because of large void spaces that are difficult to gain access to.
Ceilings do not follow exterior roof lines so there are voids above all those different height ceilings and arches. they make great chimneys for hot air/smoke to travel through without being noticeable to people in the normal areas.
Gaining access though maintenance hatches can be difficult and time consuming, especially if some sort of maintenance supervisor with extensive knowledge of the building is not on site. The firemen also have problem in a building this size as the distance their hose streams are effective is around 60-80ft, maybe 100 if lucky and using the right nozzle.
Now if the fire is above the ceiling and below the roof the ceiling will do a dandy job of keeping the water away from the fire until the firemen can find the right access hatch, or hit the ceiling hard enough to blow it it in. Even in normal house fires with 8 foot ceilings and sheet rock it is procedure to have one or more men with hooks pull the ceiling down so the hose crew can put the water stream in the attic. Not going to work here.
even something like this would have trouble.
and they take a while to set up. And even this has a range of under 100ft before the stream breaks up.
And even if you can punch a hole using 600-1000gpm of water in a few minutes that water is going to come back down.
Churches are one of the hardest fires to fight.
Ceilings do not follow exterior roof lines so there are voids above all those different height ceilings and arches. they make great chimneys for hot air/smoke to travel through without being noticeable to people in the normal areas.
Gaining access though maintenance hatches can be difficult and time consuming, especially if some sort of maintenance supervisor with extensive knowledge of the building is not on site. The firemen also have problem in a building this size as the distance their hose streams are effective is around 60-80ft, maybe 100 if lucky and using the right nozzle.
Now if the fire is above the ceiling and below the roof the ceiling will do a dandy job of keeping the water away from the fire until the firemen can find the right access hatch, or hit the ceiling hard enough to blow it it in. Even in normal house fires with 8 foot ceilings and sheet rock it is procedure to have one or more men with hooks pull the ceiling down so the hose crew can put the water stream in the attic. Not going to work here.
even something like this would have trouble.
and they take a while to set up. And even this has a range of under 100ft before the stream breaks up.
And even if you can punch a hole using 600-1000gpm of water in a few minutes that water is going to come back down.
Churches are one of the hardest fires to fight.
It's more than a building...
GrauGeist
Generalfeldmarschall zur Luftschiff Abteilung
It'll be rebuilt.
Several churches and cathedrals that were destroyed in WWII have been rebuilt like Monte Casino, Konigsberg cathedral, St, Gervais church and the cathedral at Cologne.
Several churches and cathedrals that were destroyed in WWII have been rebuilt like Monte Casino, Konigsberg cathedral, St, Gervais church and the cathedral at Cologne.
- Thread starter
- #58
Problem is not the building, but that art that is destroyed. I believe that the building will be restored, but those art pieces will never come back.
Having said that, it is a bit strange to me that within a few days, almost a billion euro's is been raised to restore the building, while many projects to aid other people are struggling to get some money. Clearly an old building is worth more than a milion human beings.
Having said that, it is a bit strange to me that within a few days, almost a billion euro's is been raised to restore the building, while many projects to aid other people are struggling to get some money. Clearly an old building is worth more than a milion human beings.
Oh i know it will, and it should be. It's not "hust a building" though like any significant historical building isn't.
I think Macron thought a national campaign to contribute and rebuild it as a nation was a good idea but was undermined by a few individuals throwing in a few hundred million of their loose change.
