Opportunity lost - DB 16 cyl

Discussion in 'Engines' started by Piper106, Nov 21, 2009.

  1. Piper106

    Piper106 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2008
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    It is historic fact that Damlier Benz worked on a 16 cylinder development of the DB603 line of engines under the DB609 type number. Development of this engine was abandonned in April of 1943.

    From what little I have been able to find out, it was a conventional V16 design with a crankshaft that was 8 throws long, and the propeller reduction gear at the end of the engine. My guess is that torsional vibration and twisting of such a long heavily loaded carnkshaft was a major difficultly, and that correcting crankshaft problems was beyond the ability of the Damlier Benz engineers and technicians.

    But what if DB had built the engine like the Chrysler IV-2220?? Use the pistons, rods, valves, etc. from a DB603 to build a 162 mm bore x 180 mm stroke sixteen cylinder engine as essentually two V-8s end to end with the propeller reduction gears in the center of the engine. Now there are two short stiff crankshaft segments, and a the two crank segments could have been isolated from each other with a vibration damper or quill shaft. I estimate that the weight of such an engine with a single stage supercharger would have been around 2700 pounds (1230 kg).

    This likely would have given the German airforce a reliable alternate to the Jumo 222 on a timely basis. Maybe this could have been the 2500 HP engine that they needed for later versions of the He 219, Ju 388, etc. and the Bomber B projects.

    That is all I think i know.
    Piper106
     
  2. Civettone

    Civettone Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,821
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    London, UK
    Home Page:
    too little info to say much about it ...


    Kris
     
  3. jerryw

    jerryw Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2008
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    Trentham, Victoria, AU
    #3 jerryw, Nov 22, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
    The DB 609 was (yet another) interesting design project produced by the German aviation industry during WW2. It was one of many aimed at producing engines with a quantum power increase compared to the engines the German Air Force started the war with.

    Below is a couple of line drawings of the DB 609 which was designed to be installed in aircraft either upright or inverted.

    Points of interest include the use of WET cylinder liners (unusual for DB); SEPARATE cylinder heads; ONE-PIECE crankcase/cylinder blocks (which must have required a very large casting); large diameter ROLLER main bearings (presumably to keep the total length of the engine down);and SIDE-BY-SIDE con-rods.

    Horsepower figure quoted is 2,660 for a weight of 3,080 lbs (one German source quotes only 2,530 lbs!) so a long way from the 1 hp/lb that some engines of the era obtained.

    A very big fighter aircraft would have been required to house this engine.

    In the L.S. drawing below, the prop. drive is missing. This engine was designed for use with contra-props. Does anyone have the drawing with the prop. drive shown?
     

    Attached Files:

  4. red admiral

    red admiral Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    [​IMG]

    The main problem is length and weight. Going with the Chrysler double V8 arrangement only increases the length further.
     
  5. Kurfürst

    Kurfürst Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2005
    Messages:
    1,076
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Occupation:
    legal field
    Location:
    Aquincum, Pannonia Prima
    Nice drawings, JW and RA - where are they from, if I may ask?
     
  6. Piper106

    Piper106 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2008
    Messages:
    160
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    As far as history; Jane's All the World's Aircraft 1945-46 gives the DB609 weight in both english and metric units. The metric weight is given as 1400 Kg. When you convert 1400 kg = 3080 pounds. Is the 3800 pounds a possible typo that has been repeated over the years???

    I respectfully disagree that making a 16 as a twin V8 would have made it significantly longer or heavier, if equal construction techniques are used. You have all the same parts to package, whether the crank is 8 throws long or two 4 throw long pieces. Much of the extreme length of the Chrysler IV-2220 was because it had separate cylinders.

    Piper106
     
  7. red admiral

    red admiral Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2005
    Messages:
    479
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    The data sheet is from "Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Ground Attack and Special Purpose Aircraft" by Herwig and Rode. It's included in the information on the Arado E.556 heavy fighter project.
     
  8. Civettone

    Civettone Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,821
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    London, UK
    Home Page:
    I got this from some website, a list by a guy called Nick Sumner

    Apart from the well-known and widely used V12 aircraft engines, the DB 601, 603 and 605, and the double engines, DB 606, 610, 613 Daimler Benz projected, designed, tested and built many other engines with model numbers between 604 and 632. These were in development from 1939 to shortly before the end of the Second World War. Of these, 12 projects remained only on the drawing board. Relatively little is known of some of these designs but they can be arranged in five development groups. With two exceptions all are based on the basic patterns of the DB 605 (35.7 l capacity) and DB 603 (44,5 l). These five groups are:

    A. New developments (DB 604, 609, 630)
    B. Special equipments (DB 607, 612. 632)
    C. Double engines ( DB 606, 610, 613 as well as 615, 619, 620)
    D. Engines with multi-stage superchargers (DB 627, 628, 63l)
    E. Engines with turbochargers (DB 621, 622, 623, 624, 625, 626, 629)

    The DB 604

    The DB 604 was abandoned in September 1942. It was a 24-cylinder, X-type, liquid-cooled engine with a two-speed supercharger. It was developed in parallel to the Jumo 222 and the BMW 802 and like these, it was considered for the Bomber B program. Bore and stroke were the same (135 x 135 mm) and high revolutions were selected at 3200 rpm. The first experimental engine reached an output of 1725 KW (2350 HP). The marks A and B differed only in the direction of rotation, the engine had a take-off power of 1,835 KW (2500 HP) and was equipped with a mechanical two-stage supercharger for a rated altitude of 5,100 m. Starting from 1939, five DB 604 engines were bench tested and some flight testing was carried out in a Ju 52. A projected development with increased capacity and with a three-stage supercharger was not pursued. The development of the DB 604 was cancelled 1942 on the instructions of the RLM.

    Cylinders: Bore: 135mm Stroke: 135mm
    Capacity: 46.5l
    Compression: 7 : 1
    Weight: 1080kg
    Power: 2660hp at MSL
    Revolutions: 3200rpm

    The DB 607

    This was a four-stroke diesel engine, whose initial development was at the behest of Lufthansa, later however its usefulness to long-range military aircraft was also realised. The first engine was running in 1939, however the V3 and V4 (1940/41) were only experimental engines. Dimensions were similar to the DB 603. Take-off power was 1100 KW (1,500 HP) and with development should have reached 1285 KW (1750 HP) at 1500 rpm. If this had been successful then with a weight of 860 kg a power to weight ratio of 0,49 kg/HP would have resulted. Sources differ as to when it was cancelled, the earliest states 1941 the latest October 1942.

    The DB 609

    A further new design with the same cylinder dimensions as the DB 603 was the V16 DB 609. The first experimental engine was bench tested in 1942. It was designed in such a way that it could, with minimal modification be installed both upright and inverted. Eight cylinders per block led inevitably to a relatively long engine, but it was only 267 mm longer than a standard DB 603. However this also meant a long crankshaft and this suffered severely from vibration. The weight of the engine was 1,150 kg, and it’s take-off power of 1955 KW (2660 HP) with 2800 rpm meant a power to weight ratio of 0.43 kg/HP which was around 15% lower than a standard DB 603. An increase in output to 2055 KW (2800 HP) and later to 2500 KW (3400 HP) was projected for engines equiped with a supercharger for a rated altitude of 12,000 m. These however were not pursued since the DB 609 was cancelled from the development program in 1943.

    Cylinders: Bore: 165mm Stroke: 180mm
    Capacity: 61.8 l
    Compression: 8.5 to 1
    Length: 2935 mm
    Width: 840 mm
    Height: 1180 mm
    Weight: 1400kg
    Power: 2660hp at MSL, max cruise 1950hp at MSL
    Revolutions: 2800 rpm

    There were two other related projects; the DB 619 consisted of two coupled DB 609 engines. It had a capacity Capacity 123.6 litres and a projected output of 5240hp. It was abandoned in April 1943. The DB 629 was a DB 609 with two-stage supercharger and turbo blower for 2650hp. Both were abandoned in April 1943.

    The DB 627

    A development of the DB 603 with a two-stage supercharger and after-cooler. Development abandoned in March 1944.

    Gearing 0.518 to 1.
    Length: 2745mm
    Width: 945mm
    Height: 1230mm
    Weight: 1020kg
    Power: 2000hp at MSL, max cruise 1400hp at MSL
    Revolutions: 2700rpm
    Consumption: SFC: 0.462 lb/hp/hr

    The DB 628

    Development of the DB 605, fitted with a two-stage supercharger. Abandoned in March 1944.

    Gearing 0.594 to 1.
    Length: 2754mm
    Width: 903mm
    Height: 1227mm
    Weight: 860kg
    Power: 1475hp at MSL, max cruise 1310hp at MSL
    Revolutions: 2800rpm
    Consumption: SFC: 0.474 lb/hp/hr

    The DB 630

    Another development, which did not proceed beyond the drawing board, was the DB 630, a 36 cylinder Double W engine with a capacity of 89 litres and output in the 4,000 HP class (2,940 KW). Dr. Berger calculated the optimal cylinder arrangement angles should be 40° + 40° + 100° and it was designed to use only one crankshaft. Development was abandoned in April 1943.

    Other Projects

    DB 614 - A development of the DB 603G, 2000hp. Abandoned June 1942.

    DB 615 - Consisted of two coupled DB 614 engines. 4000hp. Abandoned in June 1942. Germany.

    DB 616 – A development of the DB 605. Abandoned in June 1942.

    DB 617 - A developmenent of the DB 603 for long-range flight.

    DB 618 - Two coupled DB 617 engines.

    DB 621 - A development of the DB 605 with a two-stage supercharger. 1620hp. Abandoned in September 1942.

    DB 622 - Development of the DB 603 with a two-stage mechanical supercharger and a turbosupercharger. 1970hp. Abandoned in January 1943.

    DB 623 - Development of the DB 603G with twin turbo-superchargers. 2265hp. Abandoned January 1943.

    DB 624 - Development of the DB 603 with both a two-stage mechanical supercharger and a turbosupercharger. 1900hp. Abandoned in April 1943.

    DB 625 - A DB 605D with turbo supercharger. 1755. Abandoned

    DB 626 - A DB 603G with twin turbosuperchargers and induction cooler. 2125hp. Abandoned November 1942.

    DB 631 - A DB 603G with a three-stage supercharger. 1900hp. Abandoned.

    DB 632 - Development of the DB 603N, with a drive for contra-rotating propellers.

    Weight: 1000kg
    Power: 2400hp at MSL, max cruise 1520hp at MSL
    Revolutions: 3200 rpm


    Kris
     
    • Bacon Bacon x 1
  9. vikingBerserker

    vikingBerserker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2009
    Messages:
    24,078
    Likes Received:
    655
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    Korporate Kontrolleur
    Location:
    South Carolina
    Great info Kris.
     
  10. jerryw

    jerryw Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2008
    Messages:
    113
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Occupation:
    retired
    Location:
    Trentham, Victoria, AU
    #10 jerryw, Nov 23, 2009
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2009
    . " Much of the extreme length of the Chrysler IV-2220 was because it had separate cylinders."
    Piper106

    This is not quite right. The Chrysler IV-2220 has separate cylinder HEADS, not separate cylinders. The crankcase casting was a bit like the Junkers Ju 211 with the water jackets and the upper crankcase all in one very large casting.
     

    Attached Files:

  11. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Newer versions of the DB603 and Jumo213 V-12 engines were achieving 2,000+ hp. These engines were reliable, lightweight and compact. Even late model DB605s were achieving 1,800 hp. IMO that made the concept of V-16 and V-24 monster motors obsolete.
     
  12. Civettone

    Civettone Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,821
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    London, UK
    Home Page:
    But those big engines would likewise be developed into engines with also higher power output.


    Kris
     
  13. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    The Jumo 004A jet engine was production ready during 1943. After that the handwriting was on the wall concering piston aircraft engines. So if you want a V16 or V24 engine to enter mass production it needs to happen NLT 1943.
     
  14. Civettone

    Civettone Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2005
    Messages:
    1,821
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    London, UK
    Home Page:
    That may seem obvious with 20/20 hindsight. But back in 1943 the jet engine was still an uncertain side show. No jet aircraft was available for production at this time.

    Also, for bombers the large piston engines were still a necessity, even until the early 50s.
    Kris
     
  15. Aurum

    Aurum Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2009
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Its really unclear to me why 16-cyl. engine had V-angle 60° but not 45° as it might to be to have equal ignition intervals?
    May be this is a mistake. Can somebody chek it?
    Also I can not get what were angle between cranks. It seems that cranks angles are all definitely 90°.

    By the way, Dimler Benz had big experience of design construction extra-multicylinders that I call engines over 12 cyls. For example Daimler-Benz constructed DB-602 diesel-engines in 1933 for LZ 129 Hindenburg LZ 130 Graf Zeppelin Airships.

    Its interesting thing that DB-602 had 50° vee which is very close to ideal 45°!

    The same engine, modified for Krigsmarine was called DB-501 DB-502. They were used on Schnellboot 1937 1939 series.

    And on Shellboots 1939/40 were used DB-509 20-cyl. engines which were direct derivatives of 16-cyls. 502-ies.

    So there was Daimler-Benz that really could construct reliable 16-cyl. aero-engine. I guess it would be rather better choice for the He-177 then 606/610-ies inflamebles.
    But seems it should be designed more curiously then DB-609 was, with 45° V!

    PS
    Wiki says quite strange thig regarding this:
    A V16 engine is perfectly balanced regardless of the V angle ... In addition angles of 45°... vees give an impulse every 45°, so are optimal solutions, for even-firing and non-split bearing crankshaft journals.
     
  16. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Now that's an interesting tidbit of information.

    Marine engines tend to be heavy as weight is not as much of an issue for boats as it is for aircraft. Perhaps the marine engines could have been lightened a bit by using magnesium for oil pans, valve covers and other such components.
     
  17. Shortround6

    Shortround6 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2009
    Messages:
    9,773
    Likes Received:
    802
    Trophy Points:
    113
    Occupation:
    retired Firefighter
    Location:
    Central Florida Highlands
    The airship and marine 16 cylinder engines were diesels. Fast motor torpedo boats used aircraft engines because normal marine engines were way too heavy to give the performance needed. Early British boats got Issota-Franschini engines and a few( very few) got Merlins. Later ones and US MTBs got the V-2500 Packards.

    The only US Alternative was a supercharged Hall-Scott of about 900hp but it weighed a few thousand pounds more than the Packard. Changing the valve covers and oilpan wasn't going to change much.
     
  18. davebender

    davebender Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    6,418
    Likes Received:
    64
    Trophy Points:
    48
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    2,500hp MB511 was supercharged version of this engine. It was considered very reliable, which should dispel any doubts about Daimler-Benz ability to make a reliable V20 engine.
    Engine.jpg
     
  19. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2011
    Messages:
    4,184
    Likes Received:
    167
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Hobart Tasmania
    You are saying DB609 for the He177?

    When would 609s be available? I believe it was first bench tested in 1942.

    Why not develop the DB604 instead? It had been running earlier, and was cancelled in 1942. It would be lighter, more compact and more powerful?

    The DB609 probably had a Vee angle of 60° because it was developed from the DB603 V12 - for which 60° is the normal angle.

    45° also wouldn't leave much room in the vee for the intake runners, and would reduce the lateral strength of the engine - considering the DB609 was about 3m long making it narrower may not have been the best thing.

    Not sure about V16s being perfectly balanced regardless of bank angle, but V12s certainly are. The question is, as you point out, the firing intervals, and what influence they have on the crankshaft torsional vibrations. From all accounts that is where teh DB609 ran into its main troubles.

    What do you mean by "non-split bearing crankshaft journals"?
     
  20. wuzak

    wuzak Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2011
    Messages:
    4,184
    Likes Received:
    167
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    Hobart Tasmania
    And how much did it weigh?
     
Loading...

Share This Page