Otto Kittel's Fw 190s

Discussion in 'Aircraft Markings and Camouflage' started by Ikerus, Oct 25, 2009.

  1. Ikerus

    Ikerus Member

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    I have information on Otto's planes, but I dont have the RLM numbers for the camo, or any other views of the planes. The book I have show a side view but nothing more, so if there was a personal insignia on it can someone show me what it was. I know that he was a part of JG 54 "Grunhurtz" and so I started there but didnt make it very far.

    It can be for any of the FW 190s he flew just put which one had what.
     
  2. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    #2 stona, Oct 25, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2009
    Hi Ikerus. I have a profile somewhere of the machine (yellow 1) in which he was shot down "behind enemy lines" in 1943.It illustrates perfectly the problem with aircraft operating on this front at this time. They would have been delivered in the standard 74/75 over 76 scheme. The pilots of JG54 realised very quickly that this gave inadequate protection in their new role as they were operating (generally) at much lower altitude and over different terrain. They appear to have ordered the aircraft re-camouflaged in theatre. This was done by applying various greens and browns. These were not standard RLM colours. I suspect they were made by mixing available colours. They operated in close proximity to their bomber and transport aircraft so the greens,70 and 71 as well as the blue 65 would have been available as well as paints for marking (yellow 04,red 23 etc). Some think captured Russian stocks or even tropical RLM colours were used.
    Have a look at the colours on this Bf109 from the same unit:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I have experimented mixing RLM colours to achieve something approximating these "Eastern" schemes,but why bother?
    I would suggest tracking down a decent profile and then matching it with whatever paints come closest for you.
    You will need not only the "Grunherz" and numbers but also Gruppe and Staffel emblems. Luckily ,when they applied the new camouflage they overpainted most stencils so you won't need to worry about them! I'd see if anyone does a decal sheet for one of his aircraft,which should also give you a profile.
    I'm assuming you want to do an aircraft on the Eastern front. I think,from increasingly dodgy memory,that he spent most of his carreer there.
    Good luck with your project
    Steve
     
  3. piet

    piet Member

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    Hi Ikerus

    the book that you have is it.... jagdgeschwader 54 Grunherz ( osprey aviation elite no6 ) by john weel?
    fw190 a-6 yellow 5 1./jg54 riga 1944
    rlm 76,75,83

    piet
     
  4. beaupower32

    beaupower32 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    Fw-190 A-7 flown by Oberleutnant Otto Kittel, 3./JG54 JunRiga-Skulte/Latviae 23rd, 1944. Otto Kittel was born on February 21, 1917 in Kronsdorf, in the Sudetenland. Fascinated with flight at an early age, he joined the Luftwaffe in 1939 at age 22. After completing his training, he joined the 2nd Staffel of JG54 with the rank of Unteroffizier. Kittel scored quickly and shot down a SB-2 and Yak-1 on his very first mission, which also happened to be the opening day of Operation Barbarossa, June 22, 1941. It was on June 30, 1941, near Dunaburg, that Kittel would encounter the Russian aircraft known as the 'cementer' or 'butcher' to the German ground troops--the Il-2. The Il-2, or Stormavik, was a heavily armored aircraft, used by the Russians on close-support missions. Standard tactics of the Il-2 was to come in at low level and race across the German positions, bombing and strafing (with 20mm cannon) as they went. The Il-2 was immune to the traditional method of attack used by fighters (rear-quarter attack) because of its armor. The only vulnerable spot was the oil cooler located on the underside. This is what Kittel did and he managed to down two of the beasts on this day. As time progressed, Kittel became so proficient at downing Il-2's, he became known to the German ground troops of Army Group North as the 'butcher-killer'. On February 19, 1943, Feldwebel Kittel scored his 39th victory, which also happened to be JG54's 4,000th of the war. Kommodore Truatloft personally congratulated Kittel and said the following: "I have instructed that you're no longer to be assigned as wingman. Instead you're to be sent on 'frei Jagd" on your own whenever there's an opportunity."
    In the next several months, there would be several 'opportunities for Kittel to raise his score. On October 29, 1943 he received the Knights Cross for the 123 victories had achieved. This award was quickly followed by the Oakleaves to the Knights Cross on April 11, 1944, at which time Kittel's score stood at 152. Finally, on November 25, 1944, the swords decoration was added to his Knights Cross for bravery in the face of the enemy and 230 victories. He was also promoted to Oberleutnant at this time. On February 14, 1945, Otto Kittel took off to intercept a flight of Il-2's. Witnesses say that Kittel dove into a formation of 8 of the close-support aircraft. He damaged one but it did not go down, instead disappearing back over the Russian lines, on fire and in serious trouble. Kittel's Fw-190 A-8 "Black 1" (Wk. no. 960282) was hit by return fire from the other Il-2's and burst into flames. The aircraft plummeted to earth, trailing a long sheet of flame and smoke, where it crashed. Otto Kittel had no chance to take to his parachute. In the end, the long time adversary of Kittel finally got him.
    Otto Kittel flew 583 combat missions and scored 267 kills, many of them Il-2's, making him the fourth highest scoring ace of all time. He started the war as an Unteroffizier and died as Staffelkapitan of 2./JG54.
    Text from The Men of JG 54
     
  5. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Beaupowers profile is similar to the one I have. Now all you have to do is decide what those greens are and whether any of the original 74/75 is peeking through!
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  6. Ikerus

    Ikerus Member

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    Yep that is the book I have, but I also have a different book, that has his Yellow 5 Fw190 A-6. Does someone know what the RLM numbers are for that?
     
  7. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Do you mean this one?
     

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  8. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    #8 stona, Oct 26, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2009
    Yikes. 75/83 over 76 is hard to argue with. I just wonder if the mottle is a bit green maybe RLM 82. Iif you feel one of those colours looks a bit brown then RLM 81 is a possibility!
    I'm looking at Merrick's excellent post '41 paint chips as I type but I'm sure you are going to get other opinions.
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  9. Wayne Little

    Wayne Little Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't want to make a call on that Osprey Profile! Would rather see a photo of the aircraft first...
     
  10. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Is there a good photo anywhere? I've had a quick look in a couple of likely sources with no luck.The profile obviously matches its own colour call, and they must have got their information somewhere.
    I could make a case for 81/82 over a late style 76, but as you say without a photo it's difficult to know. Frankly with one,unless it was in colour, we wouldn't be much better off!
    All good fun having a guess I suppose.
    In the absence of any hard evidence I reckon Ikerus would be just fine going with the profile he has.
    Cheers
    Steve
     
  11. Ikerus

    Ikerus Member

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    Wurger: yes that is it.

    so would it be the 76/83 with 76 on the bottom?
     
  12. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    I think it could be RLM 82 rather and RLM76 on sides and bottom. It is very likely because the Fw190A-6 Werk nummer.550528 flown by the I./JG54 commander Hptm.Horst Ademeit in the summer of 1944 was painted in that way ( Kagero Fw190A vol.II). Of course the camo scheme could be completed with RLM 81 mottling.
     
  13. Ikerus

    Ikerus Member

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    do you have any other pictures of that plane, like a color 3 view?
     
  14. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    Unfrortunately I don't. But it seems that the plane was of the standard camo scheme for the period of time.To my knowledge the only thing that could be re-painted were fuselages, especially if we are talking about JG54 and JG51.
     
  15. Ikerus

    Ikerus Member

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    ok thanks. would the picture of how the camo was on the planes wings from a different thread that you provided for me be the one to use?
     
  16. Ikerus

    Ikerus Member

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    does anyone have a picture of the A-8 Kittel flew when he was shot down?
     
  17. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    #17 Wurger, Oct 26, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2009
    You can use this one as the pattern. Of course you have to replace these colours with those correct for the period of time.
     

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  18. Wurger

    Wurger Siggy Master
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    As memory serves it was the Black 1.However I didn't find the pic of the Fw190A.I have found the profile via russian sources.The caption says it was A-9 variant but it is a mistake I think.
     

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  19. Ikerus

    Ikerus Member

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    #19 Ikerus, Oct 26, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2009
    do you have the RLM for that one?

    Right now I have the JG 54 'Grunherz' and Focke Wolf FW 190 from 1939 - 1945 books, do you have a book that you recommend I pick up?


    The gray camo thats on that plane, was there a pattern or was it just painted in haste? If a pattern, what pattern was it?
     
  20. stona

    stona Well-Known Member

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    Ikerus the problem is that there really was no standard camouflage late in the war.The grey profile that Wurger has posted is not dissimilar to another well known aircraft a Fw 190A-8 (WNr 681497) of 5.JG/54 that made a forced landing in Belgium in January 1945 only a month before Kittel met his end. It has been much analysed but is essentially in a two grey scheme like the old 74/75 over 76 one. RLM 74 was discontinued in mid 1944 (I'm at work so I'm not sure when exactly!) and some people think that maybe the new colour,RLM 77 (from memory? ), was applied.
    You see how tricky these interpretations can be!
    The camouflage pattern was likely the one posted above. I have a picture of a factory in mid 1944 with wings lined up and sprayed with that pattern,soft edge. On this machine the upper colours wrapped around the leading edge of the wing and finish in a sharp line. This wrap around was not uncommon on late war fighters but it sometimes finished in a soft edge or wavey line.
    It is very difficult to be certain of these schemes - informed guess work is just about as good as it gets!.
    I wish you luck with whatever scheme you settle on,it won't be "wrong".
    Cheers
    Steve
    I reckon either way the spinner would be RLM 70 with a white spiral - that is pretty certain!
     
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