P-38 Lightning VS F6F Hellcat, Pacific Warriors!

[Totalize]

Interesting. Makes complete sense, though I never really thought of this before.



This is the king of thing that I'm talking about that makes it very tough to be competitive in air kills, going above and beyond the pilot issue. And I'm sure things like better radar and better radio communications would combine to have the Hellcats usually knowing where and at what altitude the zeros would be, while Japanese fighters would usually not be privy to this information.

Indeed,

The radios in the zero had very short range. Most pilots preferred hand signals and of course a person only has limited vision range. Alternatively, rocking of the wings was also used for communication. One of the biggest advantages the Hellcat possessed, indeed all allied fighters in general, was their radios. Maintaining formation through radio comms was a very key factor in a dogfight as it helped the pilot maintain the protection of his wingman and even more so his formation. Without it one could find himself alone and separated from his group unable to catch up or reform with a friendly a/c. At this point he would be a juicy target and attacked without fail.

 

[GregP]

If they were ina dogfight, the radio was not much used. In a dogfight, the wingman's major job is to stay with the leader and watch the six o'clock position and any enemies coning from the sides.

If they were jabbering during a dogfight, who would you hear? Only ONE guy unless all were on different frequencies.

From talks at the Planes of Fame events, the radio was a very GOOD thing, but not in a dogfight. Only when NOT in a dogfight could they take the time to talk after thinking a bit about what to say. Of course, that doesn't mean NOBODY did it .... it means that's what a lot of guys have said who were there, but not all to be sure.

If nobody else was talking, and you wanted to do so, the frequency was clear.

 

[Garyt]

Makes sense, Greg. I was not thinking of the radio advantage in a dogfight as much as I was thinking of it in the ability to vector better and to be in a better position at the start of an aerial combat. I think radio makes it easier to say "We have an incoming flight of 50 Zekes at 10,000 feet, we are going to take a position betwen them and the son at 15,000 fett and dive on them".

Seem it would be a lot easier to communicate this with a radio than by hand signals and wing wobbles

 

[GregP]

Yeah, made for a good communication system, but the enemy could listen in, so they mostly used hand signals unless the transmissions were coded. Many were.

"Rendezvous at Point Able" doesn't tell the enemy much ... unless you fail to move "Point Able" around between missions. Then they have you figured out in short order.

 

[Totalize]

If they were ina dogfight, the radio was not much used. In a dogfight, the wingman's major job is to stay with the leader and watch the six o'clock position and any enemies coning from the sides.

If they were jabbering during a dogfight, who would you hear? Only ONE guy unless all were on different frequencies.

From talks at the Planes of Fame events, the radio was a very GOOD thing, but not in a dogfight. Only when NOT in a dogfight could they take the time to talk after thinking a bit about what to say. Of course, that doesn't mean NOBODY did it .... it means that's what a lot of guys have said who were there, but not all to be sure.

If nobody else was talking, and you wanted to do so, the frequency was clear.

Greg,

I disagree that a radio was not a good thing in a dogfight. A dogfight is not just one plane vs. plane locked in mortal combat where each pilot is only focused on getting the most out of a/c (strengths and weaknesses), his physical ability and situational awareness. It's much more than that. After all what you have is many a/c all swirling about diving, climbing, turning and rolling. In such a situation loosing site of your wingman, formation and s/a becomes a very real situation. Having a radio allows a pilot to call out his situation and listen to his comrades for audio cues. For instance radio call sign; I am to the north toward the mountains (or some landmark) at 15,000 heading west. Or, radio call sign : you have 3 zekes on your six break right. The R/T was very active in a dogfight. From what I have read losing site of your wingman and ability to form off him put a pilot in a perilous situation. For the Japanese pilots this was tantamount to a death sentence. They practiced and practiced formation flying till they were bored to tears. Failure to keep up meant certain death.

Another example of the use of radio in a dogfight was an instance in the ETO where a member of of the 4th FG, it may have been kid hofer or Duane "bee" beeson got separated from his wingman and flight and was cornered by some Luftwaffe fighters who thought they had a sure kill. This pilot was able to call out over the radio for help. When asked where he was he replied something to the effect I am being clobbered down here by the railways tracks. His fellow pilots, taking his visual cue, were able to dive down and ward off the enemy fighters . There are many more examples of this kind of use of the radio in a dogfight. Now, I am not saying that r/t chatter was freely used as it was not allowed but in an urgent or emergency situation it was and there was a lot of that in a dogfight.

Losing ones s/a and not communicating (for American fighters using the radio) can cause death in a heartbeat. In the book I mentioned I am reading one of the Japanese pilots was in a dogfight trying to get his bearings when a Hellcat suddenly appeared off his wing, just as suddenly another Hellcat came zooming in from above ( perhaps both were intent on shooting him down) and collided with the hellcat off his wing. Both a/c disintegrated right before his eyes and tumbled earthward.

 

[GregP]

That's OK, you can disagree.

However, remember they usually had anywhere from 1 to 4 frequencies. If they weren't on the SAME frequency, then only the guys on that frequency could hear you. If several guys were transmitting at once, nobody heard anything intelligible.

But, if the frequency was clear, then what you say is possible. And ... if it was clear, then nobody was in trouble enough to call anyone else.

The main issue was simultaneous transmission.

 

[Totalize]

Yes. The audio on the radio could be unintelligible if many we're transmitting at the same time hence the general rule that it was to be used in an emergency situation only. Radio discipline was practiced as well with the aim of reducing simultaneous transmissions.

 

[parsifal]

on board radios were always a mixed bag when it came to be assistance or hindrance in fighter control. Overall they were an advantage, not so much for the airborne commanders, who tended to rely on hand signals and teamwork, rather radios allowed fighter assets to be vectored to where they were needed by the ground based fighter controller.

Trouble was, that many US pilots, before they learnt the need for good radio discipline, tended to clog up the communication with useless chatter, ansd this had a twofold effect, not only could the fighter controller not get his message to the people that needed to hear from him, the in flight C&C also suffered, because people were too busy trying to understand or say things that really did not need to be said or communicated. The result was invariably confusion and an overall disjointed defence that often led to less than optimal results for US fighters. Later, as radio discipine was practised and refined, this problem did disappear, and US fighter control overtook everybody because of theiur better radios and superior ground based detection systems.

The Japanese are often criticised because of their poor early type radios. But I think in some respects this improved their fighter defences. As a receival device from ship to plane, Japanese radios were adequate, but inter plane comms were pretty restricted. this made fighter control actually easier, as it eliminated the incessant and uneccessary chatter that plagued the early US efforts. unfortunately for the Japanese, range was still limited to los near the ship, and the ship had no radar. at least early on, making radio direction almost impossible. So, it was not the poor radios that caused the japanese problems, it was the inability to provide meaningful central fighter direction from the ship that was the problem. By the time this was corrected, after Santa Cruz, the japanese had already suffered some very serious defeats.