P-38 Lightning VS F6F Hellcat, Pacific Warriors!

[parsifal]

Interesting figures. Do you have any info on the P-43 victories in the PTO?

They are very interesting. Overall, Japanese aircraft losses in the war were about 45000, of which the japanese say 17000 were to non-combat causes. Estimates for the USN flak kills are about 2500-3000. We dont have losses to ground fire from other sources, but surely less than 1000. According to GGs list, I count roughly 13000 to fighters. That leaves about 12000 un-accounted for , but most likely to two main causes: bombers and ground overruns. We know that the Russians claim at least 1700 captured in the very last days of the war, and upwards of 1000 in their air combats (making them the second highest nationality in the pacific). They also make what are considered spurious claims for pre-1941 losses in the japanese air forces of around 1000 aircraft. I dont have any information on chinese claims 1937-45. That leaves about 9000 to bombers and other causes, excluding chinese and early war Russian claims.

Of the 45000 over 5000 were expended as Kamikazes, and of these about 2000 were lost to flak (which rather brings the flak losses into question).

As you know Japanese losses are really hard to accurately pinpoint in that top down approach, and I dont have the detailed ground up knowledge that you or Joe have......but in a very rough and general way, I think these estimates roughly tally up

 

[FLYBOYJ]

And YOU understand that you are being a jerk. Yes, I am 12, but if people really want to know that, they can go to my profile. I am a lot smarter then you think, and while not as smart as the people on this site, about 60% smarter then people my age. You are acting like the bullies at my old school, calling me stupid and pretending I can't hear you. Lighten up a bit, will you? Please take MY feelings into consideration before you post.

CV-6

Now you're gone for 3 weeks - you don't learn. I've told you several times to READ some of the threads on this site and LEARN what we're about, but you're too stubborn and thick headed to keep your mouth shut and just LEARN. Some of us have more time around warbrids then you've been alive, but instead of embracing that resource you just continue to shove your head further up your butt. I'm being overly tolerant with you, just not banning you outright so you have one more chance. Heed these words and if you decide to come back - you will not get another warning!!!!

 

[VBF-13]

The F6F Hellcat may have been delivered to the U.S. Navy in 1942, but didn't see action against the Japanese until September of 1943.

To expand a little on the part about the "Turkey Shoot":

The Battle of the Philippine Sea commenced on 19-20 June, 1944, and it was a solid defeat of Imperial Japanese forces both in the air and at sea. It was such a route, that it's been nicknamed the "Marianas Turkey Shoot" because Japanese air power was virtually swept from the sky. Estimated losses for Japanese aircraft were as high as 645 against U.S. losses of 123.

Two years earlier, the Battle of Midway commenced 4-7 June, 1942, where the Japanese to U.S. aircraft loss ratio was much closer to a match.

Several factors came into play at the Marianas Turkey Shoot: better radio communications, improved radar, improved and veteran U.S. pilots, poorer trained and fewer veteran Japanese pilots and the presence of dominant U.S. fighters (Hellcat).

Had the Japanese made better decisions and employed better CAP, the attacking U.S. land and sea elements would have fared far worse then they did during the Battle of Midway. At the Battle of the Phillippine Sea, the Japanese land and sea elements simply did not have a chance.

It's my opinion the Hellcats would have creamed the Japanese aircraft at Midway, and sunk that whole striking force, too, had we had them, imbalances in pilot experience notwithstanding. They were just that good, in my opinion. I was just wondering if that's what you meant, or were thinking differently. That's not to say there isn't room for thinking differently. I'll concede there is, as we're weighing a lot of factors.

 

[Garyt]

It's my opinion the Hellcats would have creamed the Japanese aircraft at Midway, and sunk that whole striking force, too, had we had them, imbalances in pilot experience notwithstanding. They were just that good, in my opinion. I was just wondering if that's what you meant, or were thinking differently. That's not to say there isn't room for thinking differently. I'll concede there is, as we're weighing a lot of factors.

The Hellcat itself as a fighting platform just was not that good compared to the Zero. A little faster, not much, similar rolling, did not turn or climb as well, and dove better, from a slight advantage in the dive if looking at the A6M3 to a much larger advantage if looking at earlier versions. It's more durable and armored better, and has similar firepower.

It was better than the Zero yes, but not by a real big margin.

 

[Wildcat]

The figures for the Lancer are somewhat vague, unfortunately. It seems that most of the victories scored by the P-43 were intercepting high-altitude, long-range KI-46 "Dinah" recon aircraft. There were 3 victories in the PTO and 3 more in the CBI for 6 total while service with the USAAC/USAAF.

The P-43A had good speed and high altitude performance (ceiling was almost 36,000ft./10,970m) but was a poor match for the Japanese fighters at lower altitudes. With some modifications, it may have become a decent fighter, but it's R-1830 radial was in high demand for the B-24 and DC-3, so any upgrades were abandoned and production stopped after 272 were built.

Do you happen to know the location of these victories GG? I've always liked the P-43 and had never heard of it claiming any kills outside the CBI theatre.

 

[wuzak]

F6F:. 5,160
F4U:. 2,140
P-38: 1,700
F4F:. 986
P-47: 697
P-40: 660
FM-2: 422
P-51: 297
P-39: 288
SBD: 138
TBF: 98
P-61: 63
F2A:. 10
P-36: 3
P-43: 3
P-26: 2
P-70: 2
P-35: 1

For the TBF and the SBD, was it defensive fire?

Wasn't there one SBD pilot who used his forward firing guns to shoot down a Japanese fighter?

 

[GrauGeist]

The SBD was actually used as a fleet defensive fighter on several occasions, but you may be thinking about "Swede" Vetjaska who fought and downed two Mitsubishi A6M aircraft during the Battle of Coral Sea.

The SBD downed several Japanese torpedo and dive bombers as well as downing fighters both by defensive fire and by attacking with the forward armament. I believe the numbers shown were for total Japanese aircraft downed, both offensively and defensively.

The TBF/TBM wasn't used as a fighter like the SBD but still had situations where they challenged Japanese bombers and fighters, so the numbers would reflect defensive and offensive victories.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Let's take a look at the total numbers of U.S. victories by type.

But before we do, let's also take into consideration the conditions the U.S. was operating with during the Pacific theater. The Japanese had an advantage at the start with good performing, long range aircraft manned by well trained and seasoned pilots. The U.S. started the war with older or untested designs manned by trained but unseasoned pilots.

As the war progressed, improvement of U.S. aircraft designs, better training and an increase of men and materials caught up to and passed the abilities of the Japanese ability to supply aircraft and trained pilots to the battle front.

This is where the aircraft like the F6F were able to overtake the earlier aircraft types with such high numbers of victories.

The following victories by type represent the PTO only. Any victories in other theaters (ETO, MTO, CBI) are not included:

F6F:. 5,160
F4U:. 2,140
P-38: 1,700
F4F:. 986
P-47: 697
P-40: 660
FM-2: 422
P-51: 297
P-39: 288
SBD:. 138
TBF:. 98
P-61: 63
F2A:. 10
P-36: 3
P-43: 3
P-26: 2
P-70: 2
P-35: 1

The numbers for aircraft listed above include all versions of that type listed. The numbers are as close to accurate as possible, based on various sources.

There may be some that will want to argue over the absolute exact number of victories, but these are presented to show how the F6F measured up to other U.S. types used in the PTO and again, taking into consideration the circumstances (as I mentioned at the beginning of this post) of how it came to have such a high count.

Would love to see those numbers compared to air to air losses

 

[GrauGeist]

Would love to see those numbers compared to air to air losses

I have been mulling over the idea of creating a forum database of victories by type. We have alot of folks here who would be able to contribute accurate numbers.

It would take alot of work and research, plus there will of course, be conflicting opinions.

 

[CobberKane]

Now you're gone for 3 weeks - you don't learn. I've told you several times to READ some of the threads on this site and LEARN what we're about, but you're too stubborn and thick headed to keep your mouth shut and just LEARN. Some of us have more time around warbrids then you've been alive, but instead of embracing that resource you just continue to shove your head further up your butt. I'm being overly tolerant with you, just not banning you outright so you have one more chance. Heed these words and if you decide to come back - you will not get another warning!!!

!

Hey Flyboy, I get why this kid has annoyed you and I'm not taking issue with your decision, but if he's really only twelve, couldn't you language have been a little more considered? Just a thought.

 

[parsifal]

whatever our age, income bracket, nationality, whatever, there are rules that apply, for our own protection. Allowances were made for this kid, because of his age, but he simply would not listen. end of story and end of discussion

 

[CobberKane]

I have no issue with the rules or the penalty, Parsifal

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Hey Flyboy, I get why this kid has annoyed you and I'm not taking issue with your decision, but if he's really only twelve, couldn't you language have been a little more considered? Just a thought.

NO

This issue isn't for discussion or debate so I suggest it gets dropped now.

 

[CobberKane]

NO

This issue isn't for discussion or debate so I suggest it gets dropped now

.

Well, I guess if I have issues with a culture where a moderator feels justified in telling a twelve year old he is thick, stubborn and has his head up his butt, I can always leave. Thanks and all the best everyone - you too, Flyboy.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Well, I guess if I have issues with a culture where a moderator feels justified in telling a twelve year old he is thick, stubborn and has his head up his butt, I can always leave. Thanks and all the best everyone - you too, Flyboy.

Here, I'll make it easy for ya!

Now can we get this thread back on track please.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I have been mulling over the idea of creating a forum database of victories by type. We have alot of folks here who would be able to contribute accurate numbers.

It would take alot of work and research, plus there will of course, be conflicting opinions.

My interest would be the P-39 and P-40 (hint, hint)

 

[fastmongrel]

I have been mulling over the idea of creating a forum database of victories by type. We have alot of folks here who would be able to contribute accurate numbers.

It would take alot of work and research, plus there will of course, be conflicting opinions.

I wonder how many people would get banned over a database of victories. I reckon it would just be the mods left whilst everyone else is on the beach

 

[GrauGeist]

I wonder how many people would get banned over a database of victories. I reckon it would just be the mods left whilst everyone else is on the beach

Whenever statistics are discussed, there's always a strong debate over numbers.

In all honesty, I think this is how good, hard numbers become recognized and agreed upon.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I wonder how many people would get banned over a database of victories. I reckon it would just be the mods left whilst everyone else is on the beach

Only if it shows that the Hellcat shot down 1,000,000 aircraft for the loss of 3.....

 

[GrauGeist]

Only if it shows that the Hellcat shot down 1,000,000 aircraft for the loss of 3.....

would have been 1,000,001 but a P-38 snuck in and poached the Hellcat's kill!