P-38 Lightning VS F6F Hellcat, Pacific Warriors!

[syscom3]

Flyboy, given that that the weather in the Aleutians was generally crappy with the airfields getting fog, ice and snow on a regular basis. I would suspect that the P38's landing gear arrangement would make it the superior AC (compared to any tail dragger) from a take off and landing point of view.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Flyboy, given that that the weather in the Aleutians was generally crappy with the airfields getting fog, ice and snow on a regular basis. I would suspect that the P38's landing gear arrangement would make it the superior AC (compared to any tail dragger) from a take off and landing point of view.

On hard and PSP runways, yes - through mud and dirt the tail draggers would have the advantage.

 

[syscom3]

On hard and PSP runways, yes - through mud and dirt the tail draggers would have the advantage.

I've always seen PSP runways on the Aleutian Islands. The weather conditions precluded anything but.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

I've always seen PSP runways on the Aleutian Islands. The weather conditions precluded anything but.

Yep! For the most part it was a necessity that probably saved lives.

 

[J.D.]

My vote goes unequivocally to the Hellcat.

From Wiki:

Navy and Marine F6Fs flew 66,530 combat sorties (45% of all fighter sorties of the war, 62,386 sorties were flown from aircraft carriers)[23] and destroyed 5,163 (56% of all Naval/Marine air victories of the war) at a cost of 270 Hellcats (an overall kill-to-loss ratio of 19:1).[24] The aircraft performed well against the best Japanese opponents with a 13:1 kill ratio against Mitsubishi A6M, 9.5:1 against Nakajima Ki-84, and 3.7:1 against the Mitsubishi J2M during the last year of the war.[25]

Grumman F6F Hellcat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It doesn't say it in the article but it provided around 70% of USN kills. Combined with the Marines, who generally used F4Us, it doesn't look quite so good but still accounts for 56%.

 

[tomo pauk]

There is more than few posts on this thread that cover time of use of both planes (from mid 1942 for P-38; from '43 for F6F) - highlighting important difference in quality of Japanese air forces' pilots (declining) and of USN/USAAC (increasing). Bottom line is that achievements of units eqquipped by F4F, F-40, P-39, F4U P-38 in 1942 - late 43 made life a lot easier for F6F when it appeared in late 1943.
This is not to say F6F was not a great plane.

As for number of kills vs. number of claims, we have a thread that sheds some light on that.

 

[USS Enterprise CV-6]

There is more than few posts on this thread that cover time of use of both planes (from mid 1942 for P-38; from '43 for F6F) - highlighting important difference in quality of Japanese air forces' pilots (declining) and of USN/USAAC (increasing). Bottom line is that achievements of units eqquipped by F4F, F-40, P-39, F4U P-38 in 1942 - late 43 made life a lot easier for F6F when it appeared in late 1943.
This is not to say F6F was not a great plane.

As for number of kills vs. number of claims, we have a thread that sheds some light on that.

The F6F is the top air to air fighter of the Allied Nations. You can't change that. The Night Fighter Hellcat had 2x20mm cannons and 4x.50 caliber machine guns. That means it had more powerful weapons then the P-38. The Hellcat was the BEST scorer of the war, and there is nothing you can do to change that. In a dogfight, the Hellcat would shred the P-38, and it was also a better strategic plane. It was the best plane for the USN.

 

[USS Enterprise CV-6]

The Hellcat destroyed over 5,000 Japanese aircraft. P-38 destroyed 3,785, but (I think) some of those were in Germany

 

[tomo pauk]

In case you decide to stay here a while, you will hopefully learn that I am not here to change historic accomplishments of any people taking part in the historic events, nor the accomplishments of the equipment that was designed and produced for (not only) purposes of war.
Now, if I may give you an advice or two:

The F6F is the top air to air fighter of the Allied Nations.

When coming out with such a broad and powerful statement, it wold be good to state the plane's deeds in all ww2 years. You may want to start from 1939. Then you might want to list theaters of war the specific aircraft fought, how good/bad handled the adversaries, how good/bad etc.

The Night Fighter Hellcat had 2x20mm cannons and 4x.50 caliber machine guns. That means it had more powerful weapons then the P-38.

The 1st sentence might be called 'cherry picking' - choosing of non-common weapon setup and a non-common A/C version, and then claim that your yardstick need to be applied for every other setup/version of your favorite A/C. You might also want to discriminate central and wing-mounted batteries, significance may skew the result of comparison now or then.

The Hellcat was the BEST scorer of the war, and there is nothing you can do to change that.

Again, stating the numbers of your favorite A/C and other contenders, while also stating the sources, will skyrocket reliability of your broad-sweeping statements.

In a dogfight, the Hellcat would shred the P-38, and it was also a better strategic plane.

The sentence is an opinion. I have plenty of those, and always want other people to agree with me. Several years ago, I've started to sometimes back my opinions with facts.

It was the best plane for the USN.

I am of the opinion that SDB was the best plane for USN. People flying it sunk plenty of ships, including like half of dozen of IJN aircraft carriers, before they even knew about F6F.

 

[FLYBOYJ]

The F6F is the top air to air fighter of the Allied Nations. You can't change that. The Night Fighter Hellcat had 2x20mm cannons and 4x.50 caliber machine guns. That means it had more powerful weapons then the P-38. The Hellcat was the BEST scorer of the war, and there is nothing you can do to change that. In a dogfight, the Hellcat would shred the P-38, and it was also a better strategic plane. It was the best plane for the USN.

The ONLY reason why the F6F had "more victory claims" than the P-38 was because of the environment it was placed in. The F6F operated in a much more plentiful target rich environment against IJN units with diminished skill capacity, especially later in the war. The P-38 fought mainly against JAAF units and was able to gain air superiority in late 1942 months before the F6F flew its first mission.

Like many "rookies" who come on here and spout off "Osprey Book" information, with a little research from reliable sources you will find that the 19 to 1 kill ratio of the F6F was based on "Claims" not actual confirmed kills. Despite that the F6F had an excellent combat record.

The P-38(L) had a higher service ceiling, was faster, had a better rate of climb and a higher lift to drag ratio. The F6F had lighter wing loading and was lighter over all, was a bit more maneuverable and probably accelerated better. Although both shared the same range, the P-38 could be taken an extra 500 miles (1,800 miles) if flown properly (Charles Lindberg showed this to the 475th Fighter Group.

Stategic plane? Please explain?

Both aircraft were fine aircraft in their rights but would also outperform each other in certain combat situations. I could tell you my friend that an experienced P-38 driver would never "dogfight," especially at lower speeds. I suggest some research before spouting off about the accolades of one aircraft blindly against another. BTW, for the record, I'm a former sailor (AD).

 

[GrauGeist]

The Hellcat destroyed over 5,000 Japanese aircraft. P-38 destroyed 3,785, but (I think) some of those were in Germany

I'll make a few observations here, first of all: it doesn't go over well to "kick down the door" of the forums and throw your opinion around. If you'd like to make a point, put up some data to back your claim. Your argument you posted regarding the F6F kills versus P-38 kills was invalid the moment you said "I think".

The other observation I make here, is that comparing kill ratios between a USN and USAAF aircraft is apples and oranges. They fought in different situational settings and fullfilled different needs.

So instead of attacking other members with your opinion, how about showing why you choose the F6F over the P-38 with some facts?

 

[USS Enterprise CV-6]

This is a quote: The F6F was a CV based fighter. Somehow I cannot picture the P-38 operating from Essex class aircraft carriers.

I can, but it doesn't end well

 

[USS Enterprise CV-6]

Oops, why didn't it have the quote thing? Oh well

 

[USS Enterprise CV-6]

Pros and Cons of the P-38 and F6F

F6F
Pros: Powerful weaponry, great carrier aircraft, pretty maneuverable, was a match for the Zero, easy to maintain

Cons: Somewhat slow, uglier then some planes, did have as much range as most planes in Europe (didn't need as much range)

P-38
Pros: Powerful weaponry, great speed, great range, helped take the Pacific Islands back

Cons: Expensive, not the easiest to maintain, old design

Also, would an Army Hellcat be heavier or lighter? It might be lighter because it would not need the extra strength for the arresting gear, or heavier because it could have more armor because it would not need as short of a runway?

 

[FLYBOYJ]

Oops, why didn't it have the quote thing? Oh well

Be advised that your reprieve is behavior based. For the last time I suggest you browse the forum and figure out the way things work here.

 

[USS Enterprise CV-6]

Be advised that your reprieve is behavior based. For the last time I suggest you browse the forum and figure out the way things work here.

I know how to do the quotes, it is just I didn't want the whole statement. I know how to do it, but since I didn't want the whole quote, I erased part of it, but accidently erased the part that does the quote bubble

 

[USS Enterprise CV-6]

I'll make a few observations here, first of all: it doesn't go over well to "kick down the door" of the forums and throw your opinion around. If you'd like to make a point, put up some data to back your claim. Your argument you posted regarding the F6F kills versus P-38 kills was invalid the moment you said "I think".

The other observation I make here, is that comparing kill ratios between a USN and USAAF aircraft is apples and oranges. They fought in different situational settings and fullfilled different needs.

So instead of attacking other members with your opinion, how about showing why you choose the F6F over the P-38 with some facts?

Thanks, didn't relise I was doing that...

 

[DerAdlerIstGelandet]

The Hellcat was the BEST scorer of the war, and there is nothing you can do to change that.

Hmmm, I think the Bf 109 would have something to say about that.

 

[GrauGeist]

it's great to carry enthusiasm for a favorite aircraft, but in an international group that has such a wide range of favorites, it's best to bring a "why" to the table when discussing your favorite. It helps everyone see and understand instead of sounding like you're trying to shout the guys down over a ball-team at the pub.

By the way, it's a fact that the F6F did score such a high degree of victories over the P-38, however take into consideration as to how it happened.
Early in the war, Japan had a high number of seasoned veteran pilots and ample aircraft. The victories scored over Japanese pilots were hard earned and came at a heavy price.

As the tide of war changed against the Japanese by improved U.S. and Allied men and equipment started to thin the ranks of the veteran Japanese pilots. Then it got worse.

By the time the Hellcat was introduced, Japan was in serious trouble. Their pilots had a very short life expectancy, pilots who had very limited schooling and had to face a sky darkened by Allied fighters. So battles like the "Marianna's Turkey Shoot" became a reality for the Empire where it was impossible just several years earlier.

The Hellcat did a solid job of bringing the fight to the Japanese but it also performed a solid job of preventing Kamikaze attacks against the fleet.

So this is why the P-38 had much lower numbers in the PTO than the F6F...it (and other types) paved the way for the F6F to execute virtually unrestricted air superiority

 

[USS Enterprise CV-6]

Hmmm, I think the Bf 109 would have something to say about that.

Yes, that was when I was dealing with favoritism instead of facts