And thats all another thread.....
Nice siggy there CC, I like the Torp.
Nice siggy there CC, I like the Torp.
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wmax,
I've spoken to real WWII P-51 pilots who say that they typically conducted their screening sweeps at speeds in excess of 250 IAS at 25,000-28,000 feet, in the lean power condition. That works out to about 360+ mph TAS.
What the cruising speed when "escorting" the bombers was is irrelevant, since P-51's didn't do this starting with Big Week.
The 354th flew its first mission in early December, 1943 with Blakeslee leading the new group, the 357th FG started its Ops around February 11? But in any case these two were always assigned Target escort which would have been a 'combination profile' of your two descriptions.. fast cruise to R/V point - say Munster after the Jugs were relieved, then 'Essing with a squadron out front, one high and one rear of assigned Wings or one lead and one high on either side of of the rear bomb groups - every Group had a slightly different philosophy about close escort. The high group was usually led by the Fighter Mission Commander
Typically, for a raid into Germany, four different sets of P-51's were staged to escort at different points along the route after the P-47's range was exceeded (they escorted first). Once they got into escort position, they conducted sweeping patrols across the front of the bomber formation. When the next group of escort planes arrived to releave them, they were freed to go down and hunt the Luftwaffe.
While very true for late war when 14 Mustang Groups existed, it was a long while before 4 Mustang Groups could be assigned to each of the three Task Force/Air Divisions of the 40+ B-17 and B-24 Groups
More often, at least until early May when only the 4th, 354th and 363rd (9th AF still attached to 8th) 352nd, 355th and 357th were equipped and operational, the tactic was 1.) usually fly two P-51 Groups to R/V point for Target escort per each Task Force with P-38s flying intermediate escort between R/V with Jug Groups on Penetration and R/V with Target Escorts.
Occasionally for very deep missions like Munich, RAF Mustangs would be assigned Target Withrawal Support then in turn be relieved by more P-47 Groups, near for example Frankfurt.
In April, the 8th modified its tactics to position a 51 Group for Sweeps which exactly fit your description - namely high speed cruise to a point perhaps 50+ miles out in front of one of the Bomber Task Forces to look for trouble, then hit the deck and shoot up targets on the way back. I would have to check but I believe 4th FG Blakeslee led the first P-51 Fighter Sweep in late march or early April?
These Sweeps frequently were successful at catching German fighters attempting to form up with disastrous effect.
P-39's typically operated at fairly low altitude on the East front, but were *not* mainly ground support planes there, they were mainly used as air superiority fighters. It's just that low altitude was where the action was, either intercepting German ground attack a/c or protecting their own. Soviet P-39's were sometimes used for ground attack, but so were P-51's by the USAAF, so was almost every other fighter in WWII; it was not their main mission.The P39 was very altitude limited as well as short ranged. It did pretty good work in the Pacific in ground support as it did on the Russian front.
As was common in WWII the perception of this differed between sides. The Germans believed their fighters were successful against Soviet ones in most cases even pretty late in the war, certainly including P-39's. The Soviet view was quite different, and their more successful P-39 units in particular believed they had the advantage over German fighters. There were a large number of Soviet P-39 aces, some with official scores higher than any Western ace.well bf 109 was completely superior against the p 39 . at least it is what i read.
No nose wheel, so not a P-38.Pardon my asking, but is that plane a mosquito?
Edit: I think it is. It looked a lot like a P-38, or perhaps a doubled engined P-39?
That would have been interesting.....how about a triple engine.........
Even if so, the Luftwaffe's claim accuracy varied all over the map during WWII. Some LW nightfighter units over Germany made almost 100% accurate claims, but Me-262 claims against USAAF fighters appear to have been overstated by a factor of several, probably more than 4.Why should the Soviet claims be divided by at least 4? Their claim system was almost as strong as the LW.
The other factor which I believe comes into play when discussing claims by Soviet pilots flying P39s is that the P39 had a less than stellar record against the Japanese in the Pacific war and then we are supposed to believe they were effective against LW fighters in Russia. I don't believe the Soviet pilots were better trained than US pilots so how did that happen. It may be that the Soviets inflated the claims of their pilots as a morale boosting method. The British allowed obviously inflated claims to be published during the BOB and so did the US at times. I just believe the Soviets excelled in that behavior.
1. ~3/4 of all MiG claims in Korea were Soviet so there's no major distinction there, and from Nov 1 '50 when the MiG's appeared until fall 1951 almost all the MiG's were Soviet AF, and we can study that subperiod without worrying much about non-Soviet claims.1. Is that Soviet or a communist claims in Korea Joe? The NK and Chinese certainly over claimed. The American Sabre certainly over claimed with the usual seen claiming of 10-14:1 being lowered to less than 5:1.
2. As the GPW went on, the German claim verification got worse but the Soviet claim verification got better. Iirc not only was another pilot required but also the wreckage of the shot down plane was required for the awarding of a kill.