P-47 carrier capable?
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GregP
Major
They almost HAD to be or it would be tough to land planes of more than a few percent difference in weight.
But ... I don't know for sure. Maybe some of our "carrier guys" know?
If not, it's time for some research ...
But ... I don't know for sure. Maybe some of our "carrier guys" know?
If not, it's time for some research ...
Glider
Captain
I don't know if it was the same in WW2 but in the 70's the arrester gear was tensioned for the type of aircraft landing. In the USN there was a huge difference between say an A4 and a Vigilante or F4
oldcrowcv63
Tech Sergeant
Not too surprising the USN adopted the 'F-86' as I am pretty sure it started development (in an unswept wing configuration) as a Navy sponsored project: 'NA FJ-1'.
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Shortround6
Major General
The Navy had used hydraulic brakes on the Lexington and Saratoga around 1932. They had revised the arresting gear several times from the 20s to the 30s and used some sort of hydraulic system in the arresting gear which may very well have been adjustable. It may also have been adjustable for different landing conditions. Slow moving or stationary or full speed even with the same weight aircraft?
They're hooking different lines, too, with different deck left to spare. I think I can understand, a big aircraft, coming down hot, hooking a late line, I don't even know that they can keep that baby on the deck.
GregP
Major
The Vigilante was a BIG aircraft!
I'm sure it was near the upper end of the arrester gear's capabilities. They launched at 65,000 pounds and could go from zero to 150 knots ina 250 foot cat stroke. They had a 60 foot run in to the arrester wire, a 350 foot deceleration stroke, and another 100 feet in which to turn around. The thing that helped them the most was the length of the arrester gear deceleration stroke.
If I'm not mistaken, they were only on Forrestall class carriers (Kennedy, Kitty Hawk, Constellation, America, Ranger, Saratoga, Independence).
It probably trapped at weights close to 50,000 pounds!
I'm sure it was near the upper end of the arrester gear's capabilities. They launched at 65,000 pounds and could go from zero to 150 knots ina 250 foot cat stroke. They had a 60 foot run in to the arrester wire, a 350 foot deceleration stroke, and another 100 feet in which to turn around. The thing that helped them the most was the length of the arrester gear deceleration stroke.
If I'm not mistaken, they were only on Forrestall class carriers (Kennedy, Kitty Hawk, Constellation, America, Ranger, Saratoga, Independence).
It probably trapped at weights close to 50,000 pounds!
oldcrowcv63
Tech Sergeant
Greg, You were not mistaken about the deployment of the Viggie. The 27C modified Essex class typically carried the RF-8 as 'recce' bird. Interestingly, the EKA-3 electric sky warrior, while heavier than the Viggie at both launch and landing had a max landing weight of 50,000 lbs, but could be recovered on the smaller carriers I assume its a landing speed differential.. The VIggie looks like its going Mach 1 just standing still so imagine how fast it's going when its actually moving…
The EKA-3 (Whale) supposedly had, at first recovery attempt, only enough fuel for two more passes before the crew had to abandon the a/c… I suspect this is a distortion of facts as most of the weight at launch would be fuel which would be dispensed during the flight. Supposedly, the original A-3 once launched at a record 85,000 pounds in 1959! I don't believe the RA-5C would have exceeded 65,000 lbs at launch.
Re carrier classes: You've listed the big deck post war carriers but lumped them together as a class. The Forrestal class. That class had only CV-59 thru CV-62: Forrestal, Sara, Ranger and Idependence.
The Kitty Hawk class consisted of a very modified flight deck and bridge layout. It consisted of the Hawk, Connie (whose names were switched), and America… JFK is a further modification of the KH that is sometimes considered a separate class itself. The modified flight deck plan developed for the KH and subsequent CVs is basically the same as that used on the Nimitz class carriers.
The RA-5C landing weight
Flight deck plans and profiles of the two classes are presented below. first CV-59 and below CV-63 (on which I cruised)
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GregP
Major
Thanks Oldcrow,
I'm not exactly a ship nut, but I listed some of the carriers the A-5 / RA-5 flew from.
The Vigilante wasn't exactly shaped to be a short-field aircraft, was it?
I knew a couple of guys who flew it and said was an A-ticket ride. But ... the guy I knew who was most enthusiastic about his plane flew the A-10. Go figure ... he said he had so much fun down in the weeds playing with it that it should have been illegal.
I'm not exactly a ship nut, but I listed some of the carriers the A-5 / RA-5 flew from.
The Vigilante wasn't exactly shaped to be a short-field aircraft, was it?
I knew a couple of guys who flew it and said was an A-ticket ride. But ... the guy I knew who was most enthusiastic about his plane flew the A-10. Go figure ... he said he had so much fun down in the weeds playing with it that it should have been illegal.
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oldcrowcv63
Tech Sergeant
I get the affection for the A-10… Some aircraft achieve design perfection for their mission… I think the A-10 is one of those. I feel very much the same about the venerable A-6… It's not the beauty of the beast, its the fun you have playing with it.
The Viggie was quite the show bird. During air shows it would fly by the carrier dumping fuel then light its afterburner… Wow! The resulting flame was quite spectacular and delighted whatever audience was assembled on the flight deck. On recce flights over Vietnam, the very clean RA-5C would outrun the escorting F4J Phantom IIs.
Re your list of carriers… Nearly complete, but you need to add Enterprise. (How could you forget the namesake of a Starship?)
The Viggie was quite the show bird. During air shows it would fly by the carrier dumping fuel then light its afterburner… Wow! The resulting flame was quite spectacular and delighted whatever audience was assembled on the flight deck. On recce flights over Vietnam, the very clean RA-5C would outrun the escorting F4J Phantom IIs.
Re your list of carriers… Nearly complete, but you need to add Enterprise. (How could you forget the namesake of a Starship?)
GregP
Major
Somebody slap me ...
oldcrowcv63
Tech Sergeant
Oh No!!! I didn't notice the absence of the JFK (CV-67) from your list!! Somebody slap ME!! I believe it came into service too late for a cruise off Vietnam but I am sure it included RA-5Cs in its embarked Air Wing (CVW-1) as the photo below confirms: See one nosed a/c spotted just forward of the island.
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GregP
Major
Looks like two RA-5's in addition to A-3's, F-4's, and A-7's plus the odd S2F (looks like one ahead of the island to the left, facing backwards with wings folded).
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Messy1
Master Sergeant
Are those A-6's parked further next to the Vigilante's? Also, are those A-4's behind the island to the back of the ship?
l'Omnivore Sobriquet
Airman 1st Class
Yes.
Hm, anyboby having ever seen Le Mirage Quatre 'round here ? Live I mean.
Same category.
Same impression, and quite a show even when on finals.
A great recce ship too...
Land based.
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GregP
Major
Mirage IV's were beautiful aircraft and, as you say, very impressive.
I aways liked the Mirage F1, too. Too bad the beautiful slim nose couldn't house much of a radar, but it sure looked good and still does.
Saw a gorgeous Paris jet at Reno a couple of years back for sale on the ramp during the races. It looked better than new but was, as we know, more than 40 years old.
But, I didn't see any P-47's on carriers.
I aways liked the Mirage F1, too. Too bad the beautiful slim nose couldn't house much of a radar, but it sure looked good and still does.
Saw a gorgeous Paris jet at Reno a couple of years back for sale on the ramp during the races. It looked better than new but was, as we know, more than 40 years old.
But, I didn't see any P-47's on carriers.
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oldcrowcv63
Tech Sergeant
Ok, I'll do my best to identify the aircraft spotted on the JFK's flight deck:
Forward of the Island and on the ship's starboard (island) side we have from bow to island: 6 LTV A-7 Corsair II 1 Mc-Dac F4 Phantom II facing toward the port bow, 2 Grumman A-6, 1 North American RA-5C, 1 A-7, 1 RA-5C, and 1 A-7 all facing to the ship's Port-side. Abeam the island and facing the starboard side are 2 Grumman E-2 Hawkeyes. Next to them are parked 2? Sikorsky SH3 Sea Kings. Directly aft of the Island it looks like may be 1 RA-5C and 2 Douglas EKA-3B SkyWarriors all facing starboard. Looks like an F-4 is rearmost on the port side facing somewhat toward the port bow. Looking at the center of the flight deck from stern to bow, we have what is probably a Grumman C-1 Trader COD aircraft. Looks like 7 A-7s are spotted near the center of the flight deck and facing the starboard side. Near the bow, 1 EKA-3 is spotted behind 2 F-4s, all facing forward.
Down the Port side are from Bow to Stern are 7 F-4s, all facing toward the starboard bow while behind them an F-4 is being moved to a different spot. Near the stern are an EKA-3B, 2 F-4s and finally spotted rearmost on the starboard side, another EKA-3B. Total a/c tally:
14 x F-4
15 x A-7
2 x A-6
3 x RA-5C
2 E-2
5 EKA-3
1 C-1
2 SH-3
If this Air Wing is comprised as a normal air wing complement, circa late 60's to mid-1970s, the hangar deck should have:
10 x F-4
8 or 10 x A-6 (assuming the EKA-3s are performing both the ECM and the refueling mission as substitutes for 4 KA-6s)
9 x A-7
2 x E-2
2 x SH-3
One of the EKA-3s may actually be a VQ EA-3B embarked for ELINT missions.
That's my best guess anyways.
Forward of the Island and on the ship's starboard (island) side we have from bow to island: 6 LTV A-7 Corsair II 1 Mc-Dac F4 Phantom II facing toward the port bow, 2 Grumman A-6, 1 North American RA-5C, 1 A-7, 1 RA-5C, and 1 A-7 all facing to the ship's Port-side. Abeam the island and facing the starboard side are 2 Grumman E-2 Hawkeyes. Next to them are parked 2? Sikorsky SH3 Sea Kings. Directly aft of the Island it looks like may be 1 RA-5C and 2 Douglas EKA-3B SkyWarriors all facing starboard. Looks like an F-4 is rearmost on the port side facing somewhat toward the port bow. Looking at the center of the flight deck from stern to bow, we have what is probably a Grumman C-1 Trader COD aircraft. Looks like 7 A-7s are spotted near the center of the flight deck and facing the starboard side. Near the bow, 1 EKA-3 is spotted behind 2 F-4s, all facing forward.
Down the Port side are from Bow to Stern are 7 F-4s, all facing toward the starboard bow while behind them an F-4 is being moved to a different spot. Near the stern are an EKA-3B, 2 F-4s and finally spotted rearmost on the starboard side, another EKA-3B. Total a/c tally:
14 x F-4
15 x A-7
2 x A-6
3 x RA-5C
2 E-2
5 EKA-3
1 C-1
2 SH-3
If this Air Wing is comprised as a normal air wing complement, circa late 60's to mid-1970s, the hangar deck should have:
10 x F-4
8 or 10 x A-6 (assuming the EKA-3s are performing both the ECM and the refueling mission as substitutes for 4 KA-6s)
9 x A-7
2 x E-2
2 x SH-3
One of the EKA-3s may actually be a VQ EA-3B embarked for ELINT missions.
That's my best guess anyways.
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davparlr
Senior Master Sergeant
and it is now obvious why the Navy was desperate to reduce aircraft type on board.
At least by this time it appears they had gotten rid of avgas.
At least by this time it appears they had gotten rid of avgas.
oldcrowcv63
Tech Sergeant
Almost but not quite Dav, The C-1 had two Wright R-1820 recips. Once it was replaced by the Grumman C-2 Greyhound with turboprops the conversion to JP5 fueled gas turbines was complete.
GregP
Major
It's the C-1 I mistook for an S-2.
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