P-47 Dogfighting tactics.

stona · Dec 12, 2015

And those 9th AF pilots still scored plenty of air to air victories in their P-47s. Eagleston ended up with 18.5, how many would he have scored flying with the 8th AF ?
Cheers
Steve

FLYBOYJ · Dec 12, 2015

Greyman said:
The figures I've collected over the years don't deal with the general over-nose visibility but the 'fighting view' (in British parlance); the view over the nose as it relates to the gunsight/deflection shooting.

In that case the best single engine is the Fulmar at 10 degrees. Worst is the Allison Mustang at 22/3 degrees.

Thunderbolt is 31/4 degrees.

These are approximate figures of course since things change slightly with speed and altitude.

Actually poor nose visibility is more applicable during taxi and takeoff while the tails still sits on the gound

drgondog · Dec 12, 2015

stona said:
And those 9th AF pilots still scored plenty of air to air victories in their P-47s. Eagleston ended up with 18.5, how many would he have scored flying with the 8th AF ?
Cheers
Steve

Actually Eagleston got All of his scores in P51's. 13.5 in P-51B's flying escort while the 354FG was attached TDY to 8th AF, Zero in P-47 from Dec 1, 1944 through Feb 15 1945, then 5 more in P51D in March 1945. In Korea he got 2-1-7 MiGs with 4FIW.

As an aside the entire force 9AF P-47s were awarded ~1290 air VC - a little less than 2X of the 56FG total of 665.5

GrauGeist · Dec 12, 2015

I always wondered how the P-47 would have stacked up in Korea...I can imagine it would have certainly scoured the earth much like it did in WWII, but as the Jets came into being, would it have been able to fend off the MiGs?

Of course, the Skyraider took the P-47's lofty perch as a premier ground attack beast...but it still makes me wonder

VBF-13 · Dec 13, 2015

drgondog said:
The P-51 had about the same loss rate per 1000 sorties as the F4U in a very lethal environment in Korea.

The challenge to the WWII P-47 legacy in Europe is that it often could not Get in the fight from Big Week forward when the 8th and 15th went deep.

There was a guy in my Dad's old-timer club who flew the P-47. I don't have the squadron. It was in Europe, about 1944. The club was mainly Pacific and Naval, but when you're in your 70s and 80s, you'll take whatever comes along, lol. This guy was built like a P-47. He said the P-47 cockpit had a lot of leg and arm room. Correct me if I got it wrong, but he said they'd make it pretty deep into Germany in these. I don't know if he meant all the way to Berlin, but these were the later models he was flying.

Greyman · Dec 13, 2015

FLYBOYJ said:
Actually poor nose visibility is more applicable during taxi and takeoff while the tails still sits on the gound

For sure - just adding related tidbits.

drgondog · Dec 14, 2015

VBF-13 said:
There was a guy in my Dad's old-timer club who flew the P-47. I don't have the squadron. It was in Europe, about 1944. The club was mainly Pacific and Naval, but when you're in your 70s and 80s, you'll take whatever comes along, lol. This guy was built like a P-47. He said the P-47 cockpit had a lot of leg and arm room. Correct me if I got it wrong, but he said they'd make it pretty deep into Germany in these. I don't know if he meant all the way to Berlin, but these were the later models he was flying.

The P-47D-25 and newer models had 365 internal gallons, up from 305. In mid July the 78thFG did a target escort to Leipzig but by this time only the 56, 78, 353 and 356 FG had P-47s and the P-38 groups were switching to P-51s.

The range for this mission was enhanced by Allied capture on most of France so the Jugs didn't have to go all the way back to England if(when) they were low on fuel.

The P-47M, lighter with same fuel did make it to Berlin occasionally and southeastern Germany at the end of the war in April 1945. Conversely the P-51 was shooting up Prague area airfields.

The Jug should not have done better than the F4U in Korea and the loss rate for the F4U was only just below the P-51D. As to shooting down MiGs - only when the MiG (like the Me 262) driver was overcome by stupid and engaged in a turning fight at low altitude.

The F4U lost 494 to all causes, 325 to combat, .52 % loss rate (5.2 per 1000)
The P-51 lost 475 to all causes, 341 to combat, .54% loss rate

Arguably Korea was a more intense AA threat environment than ETO/MTO.

tomo pauk · Dec 14, 2015

The late version P-47D would've had a significantly greater range/radius that the F4U-1/-4. The distance between Hiroshima and Seoul is some 380 miles - out of reach for the F4U, well within the reach of the (edited) P-47. Granted, the F4U comes on it's own when operated from the carrier.
Point was made in an earlier thread that P-47 with a punctured oil system will have more minutes than F4U before the engine dies due to the greater amount of oil carried, twice as much of oil was aboard.

drgondog said:
...
The P-47M, lighter with same fuel did make it to Berlin occasionally and southeastern Germany at the end of the war in April 1945. Conversely the P-51 was shooting up Prague area airfields.

Bill - the P-47M was as heavy as (late) P-47D. Basiacally same airframe with new engine.

As to shooting down MiGs - only when the MiG (like the Me 262) driver was overcome by stupid and engaged in a turning fight at low altitude.

Very true.

Arguably Korea was a more intense AA threat environment than ETO/MTO.

Interesting - is the assesment of the N.Korean AAA available on-line?

Milosh · Dec 14, 2015

tomo pauk said:
The distance between Hiroshima and Seoul is some 380 miles - out of reach for the F4U, well within the reach of the F4U.

???? typo?

tomo pauk · Dec 14, 2015

Whoops, I'll edit that.

GrauGeist · Dec 14, 2015

tomo pauk said:
...The distance between Hiroshima and Seoul is some 380 miles - out of reach for the F4U, well within the reach of the F4U...

The distance between Hiroshima and Seoul is certainly within range of the P-47N and the Corsair, including the F4U-4.

drgondog · Dec 14, 2015

Tomo - you are right about the M, it is not lighter but 200 pounds heavier than the D-25 when comparing empty weights.

The statistics weren't online but were published in a USAFHRC document - I wrote them down in a logbook but I have to dig for the specific doc. What I recall was that these were just a segment of sortie loss study for US fighters through Vietnam (but no breakout for WWII)

tomo pauk · Dec 14, 2015

GrauGeist said:
The distance between Hiroshima and Seoul is certainly within range of the P-47N and the Corsair, including the F4U-4.

It is within th distance of the F4U if it is going slow-ish, that it can do for the good distance when flying over the water, while trading bombload for drop tanks. The P-47N has 2-3 times the combat radius of the F4U, due to more than twice the internal fuel. In practice, it means it can have 2x1000 lbs bombs and a drop tank, fly from Japan and actually loiter above any part of South Korea before delivering the bombs where needed. Or it can strike Notrth Korea proper.
For the F4U, it will be a 1000 lb bomb and a drop tank, while still not able to match endurance/radius of the P-47N.

P-47 Dogfighting tactics.

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