P-47N Thunderbolt vs. F4U-4 Corsair - Which was superior?

Snorts said:

First post:

My Dad flew the P-47N. He engaged in mock combat with the F4U's all the time, in both a D model and an N model, and against the -4's as well as earlier marks.

For practice flights his squadron would fly south from Dover Delaware on loooong training flights. On the way back they would often engage Navy Units in their birds in dogfights.

My Pop's thoughts on all this, as captured in several oral history sessions.

The Corsairs wanted the fight below 15,000 feet, the Thunderbolt pilots above that. Taunting would ensue until one group said heck with it and climbed or dove to engage.

In a D model P-47 Pop said it had a performance very similar to earlier Corsairs. And, he couldn't tell by looking which model F4U he was facing. That said, what a -4 pilot would do was to lure the P-47 into a half or quarter turn, high G, then roll wings level and zoom climb. The -4 outrolled and out zoomed the P-47D's, and as the D fell off the Corsair had them.

In the N model when the -4 did that, the N outrolled and out-zoomed the Corsair. he said the Jug would catch and soar past the Corsair, and he would wave. The Corsair pilots would wave back with one finger.

Dad said you did NOT turn with the Corsair, they could out turn the Jug, any version. But he dismissed that as insignificant, a Jug pilot never thought of getting into a luffberry anyway. Dive, zoom, roll, those were what the Jug did well. He also said the lead computing sight was a great piece of equipment.

According to Dad, the poor sustained climb rate of the P-47N meant nothing. He was flying into combat at the altitude he wanted, and the zoom climb was what was used in aerial combat, and the P-47 excelled at that.

He dearly loved his P-47's. But before one thinks he was blindly loyal to it, he freely admits the P-51 was better below 30,000 feet. Even at that, he said that above 30,000 feet with the Mustang "you still had an airplane". In other words, it was still capable.

I have it on tape, me asking Dad to pick the plane that did things better, P-51 or his favorite, the P-47.

Speed..."Mustang" (According to Dad, the N did not outrun the Mustang until above 22000 feet or so. The D models could not outrun it at any altitude. He flew P-51s with 145 octane, and he said it made the acceleration, climb rate and top speed down low even more of an advantage for the Mustang).
Acceleration..."Mustang"
Roll rate...."Mustang"
Dive acceleration..."Mustang"
Dive speed....a long pause. Then a tired sounding "Mustang".
Zoom climb...."Mustang". His eyes lit up on that. According to him, the P-51 was fantastic in the zoom, and he felt it was the single best attribute of the Mustang.
Visibility..."Mustang"
Turn..."Mustang"
Dad tired of this, and began talking. Basically he told me that sure, the P-51 did most things better than the Jug, except bring you home. According to him, Pilots liked that better than any performance or maneuverability advantage, and liked the added firepower as well. Tough with a great punch. He would have preferred flying the P-47 in combat.

The war ended as he was, literally, on the way to Ie Shima. He and my Mom were part of the occupation, and Dad was assigned to a P-51 photo recon unit in Japan, getting in his Mustang hours.

Dad is deceased, after serving in three wars, WW2, Korea where he actually flew the B-26, and Viet-Nam. Take this for what it is worth, it is offered with no apologies or caveats.

I like this forum!

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Snorts said:

Dad tired of this, and began talking. Basically he told me that sure, the P-51 did most things better than the Jug, except bring you home. According to him, Pilots liked that better than any performance or maneuverability advantage, and liked the added firepower as well. Tough with a great punch. He would have preferred flying the P-47 in combat.


Terrific post.
Did he think that because of the R2800 or anything else ?
Thanks.

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Snorts said:

drgondog, thanks for a great post of your own.

A bit of clarification....Pop agreed with your Dad, the P-47 was better than the Mustang above 30,000 feet. Not that the Mustang was poor, the P-47 just came into its own in the thin air.

Roll rate, who am I to argue? Just reporting what the Old Man said. It is really cool to compare the two opinions, though. I think the point of the story there was that the P-47N rolled better than the P-47D he flew.
He did tell me he remembered cruising along at high speed in the Mustang, throwing the stick over, and banging his head on the opposite canopy side.

Dad apparently did some terminal dives in the P-47. He said that the one thing that separated it from all the other props he flew was that you KNEW it would hold together. You split essed with absolute confidence
He never flew the P-51B, H or K versions, just the D' and the F6. He did say that if you were flying with 145 octane fuel, it was like a different airplane. They also 'blew out the engines' every 20 -30 minutes with the 145 octane to avoid spark plug fouling.

He also described the P-47 as a Cadillac, with a roomy cockpit, and lots of pilot comforts. The P-51 was 'worn' by the pilot, tight fitting and cramped. You also wore gloves in it, because unfinished metal edges would cut you. "Thus the "Spam Can" nickname. When asked, he said the instrument layout for both planes was good.

I quizzed him pretty thoroughly on the charge that the P-51 had high stick forces. I wish I had a video. He wrinkled his forehead and said, "no more than any of the other planes I flew." Constant trimming was necessary when flying the Mustang, and if you didn't have it trimmed right, THAT could cause high stick forces.

Dad also flew all the AAF types except the P-38. He got a ride in a P-39, and had quite a bit of time in the P-40. He also got a flight or two in the P-36. Later in his career he flew the F-86, F-86D, P-80, T-33 and F-101B Voodoo.

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renrich said:

I had an uncle who was an IP in P47s (and P39s) He said that when in mock dogfights they got waxed by Corsairs. I keep hearing about P47s having good roll characteristics but in Dean's "America's Hundred Thousand," he said the roll rate of the P47 was nothing to shout about. Would not the P47N with the longer wing span have a poorer roll rate than the P47D?

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Snorts said:

....was dismissive of the Hellcat. ......Just reporting the facts as my Dad saw them.

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