P-61 alternatives

[GreenKnight121]

What kind of night-fighters did we have for defending the United States? The P-70 and P-61 right? I do remember some kluge jobs including a P-38 with a radar-pod (eventually, the night-lighting was developed as a purpose-built night-fighter, but that was later, IIRC).

Yes, the P-38M was kind of a "kludge", but it was not "cleaned-up" because the P-61 met the need.

The P-38M had a top speed of 406 mph at 15,000 feet as compared to only 369 mph at 20,000 feet for the Northrop P-61A Black Widow. Initial climb rate was 3075 feet per minute, and an altitude of 20,000 feet could be attained in 8.7 minutes.

If there was a need for a faster radar-equipped night-interceptor than an improved version (with the better fuselage mentioned above) would certainly have been introduced - and would likely only take a couple of months to do so.

P-38M :

In 1944, Lockheed converted P-83L-5-LO Ser No 44-25237 as a two-seat night fighter, with the radar operator sitting aft of the pilot under a raised section of the canopy. The aircraft was fitted with an AN/APS-6 radar in an external radome underneath the nose, relocated radio equipment and anti-flash gun muzzles.

This modification was successful, and provided the USAAF with a night fighter having a top speed of 406 mph at 15,000 feet as compared to only 369 mph at 20,000 feet for the Northrop P-61A Black Widow. Consequently, the Army issued a contract change calling for the Lockheed Modification Center in Dallas to convert 80 additional P-38L-5-LOs into P-38M twin-seat night fighters (some sources give 75, but 80 serials are identified). They were painted glossy black overall. These were just entering service when the war ended. The P-38M saw operational service in the Pacific in the last few days of the war. It was an effective night fighter with very little performance penalty over the standard single-seat Lightning.

Flash eliminators were fitted to all guns, mainly to aid the pilot in retaining night vision when they were fired. Experiments were conducted with the object of shielding the turbosupercharger exhaust, but the entire exhaust system was so hot that it glowed at night, making the small reduction of visibility possible with the shielding of the actual efflux relatively pointless. Consequently, no modifications of the exhaust system were undertaken on "production" P-38Ms. Initial climb rate was 3075 feet per minute, and an altitude of 20,000 feet could be attained in 8.7 minutes.

A total of 80 P-38Ls were converted to P-38M configuration. Serials of P-38Ls converted to P-38M configuration were as follows: 44-26831, 26863, 26865, 26892, 26951, 26997, 26999, 27000, 27108, 27233, 27234, 27236, 27237, 27238, 27245, 27249, 27250, 27251, 27252, 27254, 27256, 27257, 27258, 53011, 53012, 53013, 53014, 53015, 53016, 53017, 53019, 53020, 53022, 53023, 53025, 53029, 53030, 53031, 53032, 53034, 53035, 53042, 53050, 53052, 53056, 53062, 53063, 53066, 53067, 53068, 53069, 53073, 53074, 53076, 53077, 53079, 53080, 53082, 53083, 53084, 53085, 53086, 53087, 53088, 53089, 53090, 53092, 53093, 53094, 53095, 53096, 53097, 53098, 53100, 53101, 53106, 53107, 53109, 53110, 53112.

 

[Koopernic]

Yes, the P-38M was kind of a "kludge", but it was not "cleaned-up" because the P-61 met the need.

The P-38M had a top speed of 406 mph at 15,000 feet as compared to only 369 mph at 20,000 feet for the Northrop P-61A Black Widow. Initial climb rate was 3075 feet per minute, and an altitude of 20,000 feet could be attained in 8.7 minutes.

If there was a need for a faster radar-equipped night-interceptor than an improved version (with the better fuselage mentioned above) would certainly have been introduced - and would likely only take a couple of months to do so.

P-38M :
View attachment 605411

That is certainly a far better night fighter interceptor though I note the radar was not in production till March 1944 and the P38M till late in 1944. The P38M certainly could have been prioritized somewhat. The glowing exhaust might alert the Me 264 crew. I'm not confident that the muzzle flash arrestors would be enough. The radar should be in the upper part of the nose and the guns low as possible. Luftwaffe night fighter pilots worked in dark cockpits with radium dial instruments to develop a strong night vision. The He 219 wing guns was disliked because of the effects of gun flash from them. A ventral pack is best.

In late, post D-day, 1944 things would be going badly for the Luftwaffe but replacing the BMW 801 radials with DB603 inline increased the speed of the Do 217K (Do 217M) by 15mph and increase the speed of the Ju 188E to Ju 188A with Jumo 213A also be 15mph. Ju 88G1 to G6 speed increase is 25mph with radar fitted possibly due to "increased boost" 1900hp rating.. Our Me 264 is now somewhere between 355-365mph at 21000ft. Still Within interception speed but not easy.

The mosquito was such a fast aircraft interception procedures involved orbiting the target. It had guns low down.

The crews of such Me 264 would suffer attrition but the threat of the Me 264 would continue to force the US to deploy disproportionate resources.

The latter Me 264 would have been able to bomb the US west coast from bases in Japan using one in flight refueling.

 

[jmcalli2]

J jmcalli2 , yup those German engines didn't go anywhere.

Not on the Me-264 they didn't.

 

[jmcalli2]

That is certainly a far better night fighter interceptor though I note the radar was not in production till March 1944 and the P38M till late in 1944. The P38M certainly could have been prioritized somewhat. The glowing exhaust might alert the Me 264 crew. I'm not confident that the muzzle flash arrestors would be enough. The radar should be in the upper part of the nose and the guns low as possible. Luftwaffe night fighter pilots worked in dark cockpits with radium dial instruments to develop a strong night vision. The He 219 wing guns was disliked because of the effects of gun flash from them. A ventral pack is best.

In late, post D-day, 1944 things would be going badly for the Luftwaffe but replacing the BMW 801 radials with DB603 inline increased the speed of the Do 217K (Do 217M) by 15mph and increase the speed of the Ju 188E to Ju 188A with Jumo 213A also be 15mph. Ju 88G1 to G6 speed increase is 25mph with radar fitted possibly due to "increased boost" 1900hp rating.. Our Me 264 is now somewhere between 355-365mph at 21000ft. Still Within interception speed but not easy.

The mosquito was such a fast aircraft interception procedures involved orbiting the target. It had guns low down.

The crews of such Me 264 would suffer attrition but the threat of the Me 264 would continue to force the US to deploy disproportionate resources.

The latter Me 264 would have been able to bomb the US west coast from bases in Japan using one in flight refueling.

One advantage the P-38M had was altitude performance until the P-61C came online.
One disadvantage was the smaller radar that had a shorter range on the P-38M.
Another disadvantage was the cramped seating for the radar operator.
And one more observation: the P-61 had a much heavier armament, 4 x .50 cal and 4 x 20mm vs 4 x .50 cal and one x 20mm.

Oh, and if you're going to have "latter" Me-264s with inflight refueling operating from Japan, my F-106s will shoot the down as my B-58s nuke their bases.

 

[jmcalli2]

Didn't the US have a base in Greenland, via which aircraft were flown to the UK?

North Atlantic air ferry route in World War II - Wikipedia

 

[Dimlee]

Didn't the US have a base in Greenland, via which aircraft were flown to the UK?

They did. So the Germans, whose bases(stations) remained undetected for a long time.

 

[swampyankee]

One advantage the P-38M had was altitude performance until the P-61C came online.
One disadvantage was the smaller radar that had a shorter range on the P-38M.
Another disadvantage was the cramped seating for the radar operator.
And one more observation: the P-61 had a much heavier armament, 4 x .50 cal and 4 x 20mm vs 4 x .50 cal and one x 20mm.

Oh, and if you're going to have "latter" Me-264s with inflight refueling operating from Japan, my F-106s will shoot the down as my B-58s nuke their bases.

Before anybody says that it the delta wing was developed in WW2 by Germany, that is certainly partly true, but flight at high speeds was an active area of research in many national aeronautical laboratories.

 

[GrauGeist]

The triangular wing for stabilizing a rocket in flight were pioneered by an Austrian and a Lithuanian several hundred years before aircraft, however, it may be disappointing to some to know that it was indeed a German, Dr. Lippisch, who developed a delta wing that was capable of flight properties (both with and without a tail).
This was in the late 1910's.

 

[jmcalli2]

They did. So the Germans, whose bases(stations) remained undetected for a long time.

Weather stations.

One was bombed by US planes.
Flying from Iceland.

Greenland during World War II Summary & Facts

 

[Koopernic]

Before anybody says that it the delta wing was developed in WW2 by Germany, that is certainly partly true, but flight at high speeds was an active area of research in many national aeronautical laboratories.

The Germans almost exclusively invested in the supersonic wind tunnels and the only ones to do so with big enough wind tunnels. We had some excellent work by Jakob Ackerart in Switzerland. His work on biconvex wings was what was used on the Miles M.52. He was lecturing at the University of Goetingen during the war and the US wanted to inter him and take him to the US but he was a Swiss citizen.
The Swept and delta wing (for purposes of raising Mach limit) was clearly the invention of Bussmann,
Along with that came development such as
-Area Ruling (No it was Not Whitcomb) the WW2 Germans even had coke bottle designs.
-Methods to deal with span wise flow such as slats, geometric twist, leading edge flaps, Krueger flaps.
-They even had supercritical wings.
There was at least 2 years of data there, probably much more

 

[Koopernic]

The triangular wing for stabilizing a rocket in flight were pioneered by an Austrian and a Lithuanian several hundred years before aircraft, however, it may be disappointing to some to know that it was indeed a German, Dr. Lippisch, who developed a delta wing that was capable of flight properties (both with and without a tail).
This was in the late 1910's.

ive always thought the claim for invention of a delta "wing" On the basis of a triangular stabilising "fin" applied to a sketch of a black powered rocket originating from the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth or was it empire is petty and trite. At one point over 40% of the Wikipedia entry on delta wing was taken up by this jingoistic nonsense over triangular fins with no useful technical information. While it deserves a sentence in mention and a separate article on these fascinating early rockets we have by contrast at most 1 sentence on Alexander Lippisch, the only guy with primacy in theoretical and practical work on delta wings (not fins) and their stability in both subsonic and supersonic level flight. Nothing about how they generate vortices to reattach air flow. I have to go to millenium 7 on youtube for that. The ethnicity of the guy involved seemingly varies from Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Polish or what not depending on the political or national agenda of who is involved in writing the article. Wikipedia has become a cesspit of carefully adjudicated fake history and fake narratives that infect even technology. I'm pretty sure that Saturn V will soon be shown to be directory inspired by the guy that put triangular fins on black powder rockets.

 

[Koopernic]

One advantage the P-38M had was altitude performance until the P-61C came online.
One disadvantage was the smaller radar that had a shorter range on the P-38M.
Another disadvantage was the cramped seating for the radar operator.
And one more observation: the P-61 had a much heavier armament, 4 x .50 cal and 4 x 20mm vs 4 x .50 cal and one x 20mm.

Oh, and if you're going to have "latter" Me-264s with inflight refuelling operating from Japan, my F-106s will shoot the down as my B-58s nuke their bases.

Why? The Luftwaffe demonstrated multiple successful in flight refuelling in 1943 between Ju 252 and Ju 290 aircraft. They happened in WW2. F106 didn't. In Manfred Griehl's "Luftwaffe over Amerika" minutes of meeting are reproduced between Erhardt Milch and the Luftwaffe project manager for the Me 264 who says the results of these in flight experiments and trials was very good and the risk was acceptable because if the tanker and aircraft left together and refuelling took place 1/3rd of the way out to target there would be no loss of crew or aircraft if the refuelling failed as they could both abort to base.

The prototype for the 13000km and 14000km range Me 264 flew. The 17000km range version with 2400hp engines didn't get built but those engines did start to become available before the war was out.

If the Me 264 became available there would be a vast improvement in Luftwaffe reconnaissance and maybe nuisance raids on the US east coast. It would also allow rapid exchange of personnel, materials, technology between the Japanese and Germans.

17000km x 1.33 is about 22200km which would allow attacks on San Francisco Bay by Me 264 based near Tokyo. This makes the most industrially important areas both US east coast and west coast vulnerable.

The P61 would be useful as a picket and AWACS in a sort of layered defence.

 

[jmcalli2]

The Germans almost exclusively invested in the supersonic wind tunnels and the only ones to do so with big enough wind tunnels. We had some excellent work by Jakob Ackerart in Switzerland. His work on biconvex wings was what was used on the Miles M.52. He was lecturing at the University of Goetingen during the war and the US wanted to inter him and take him to the US but he was a Swiss citizen.
The Swept and delta wing (for purposes of raising Mach limit) was clearly the invention of Bussmann,
Along with that came development such as
-Area Ruling (No it was Not Whitcomb) the WW2 Germans even had coke bottle designs.
-Methods to deal with span wise flow such as slats, geometric twist, leading edge flaps, Krueger flaps.
-They even had supercritical wings.
There was at least 2 years of data there, probably much more

I am reminded of the Star Trek episode where Scotty mentions Scotch and Checkov replies that Scotch was "inwented by a little old lady from Leningrad."

 

[jmcalli2]

Why? The Luftwaffe demonstrated multiple successful in flight refuelling in 1943 between Ju 252 and Ju 290 aircraft. They happened in WW2. F106 didn't. In Manfred Griehl's "Luftwaffe over Amerika" minutes of meeting are reproduced between Erhardt Milch and the Luftwaffe project manager for the Me 264 who says the results of these in flight experiments and trials was very good and the risk was acceptable because if the tanker and aircraft left together and refuelling took place 1/3rd of the way out to target there would be no loss of crew or aircraft if the refuelling failed as they could both abort to base.

The prototype for the 13000km and 14000km range Me 264 flew. The 17000km range version with 2400hp engines didn't get built but those engines did start to become available before the war was out.

If the Me 264 became available there would be a vast improvement in Luftwaffe reconnaissance and maybe nuisance raids on the us east coast. It would also allow rapid exchange of personnel, materials, technology between the Japanese and Germans.

17000km x 1.33 is about 22200km which would allow attacks on San Francisco Bay by Me 264 based near Tokyo. This makes the most industrially important areas both east coast and west coast vulnerable.

The P61 would be useful as a picket and AWACS in a sort of layered defence.

I'm sorry, seems I forgot that Germany won the war and ruled the world.

"I'm not crazy about reality, but it's still the only place to get a decent meal."
Marx
Groucho not Karl

 

[GrauGeist]

If the Me 264 became available there would be a vast improvement in Luftwaffe reconnaissance and maybe nuisance raids on the us east coast. It would also allow rapid exchange of personnel, materials, technology between the Japanese and Germans.

Only if they could find a route that did not over-fly Soviet territory.
Historically, the Japanese discouraged anything that would compromise their neutrality pact with Moscow.

 

[Dimlee]

Only if they could find a route that did not over-fly Soviet territory.
Historically, the Japanese discouraged anything that would compromise their neutrality pact with Moscow.

Turkey-Iran-Afghanistan/India-Manchukuo(refueling). The actual route (subject no Japanese on board) could be over the USSR.

 

[GrauGeist]

Turkey would be a possibility but Iran/Iraq may have been an issue due to an Allied presence.

 

[SaparotRob]

I am reminded of the Star Trek episode where Scotty mentions Scotch and Checkov replies that Scotch was "inwented by a little old lady from Leningrad."

Quatrotriticale was also revealed to be a product of the USSR.

 

[Koopernic]

Only if they could find a route that did not over-fly Soviet territory.
Historically, the Japanese discouraged anything that would compromise their neutrality pact with Moscow.

Just playing with the "measure distance" function on google maps. A Polar route between say Narvik and Sapporo is about 6000km. Filling it with dog legs to avoid Soviet Territory increases this to 9200km. That's within the 14000km capability of the aircraft Going from Munich over the Mediterranean, middle east then the Himalayas on to Japan is about 12300km. It would be a pretty hazardous journey with the flight over the Berring Sea between Alaska and Siberia perhaps vulnerable to interception. These flights would of course take place with maximum secrecy and phases of low altitude and night flying timed to minimise risk of detection interception.

 

[GrauGeist]

ive always thought the claim for invention of a delta "wing" On the basis of a triangular stabilising "fin" applied to a sketch of a black powered rocket originating from the Polish Lithuanian commonwealth or was it empire is petty and trite. At one point over 40% of the Wikipedia entry on delta wing was taken up by this jingoistic nonsense over triangular fins with no useful technical information. While it deserves a sentence in mention and a separate article on these fascinating early rockets we have by contrast at most 1 sentence on Alexander Lippisch, the only guy with primacy in theoretical and practical work on delta wings (not fins) and their stability in both subsonic and supersonic level flight. Nothing about how they generate vortices to reattach air flow. I have to go to millenium 7 on youtube for that. The ethnicity of the guy involved seemingly varies from Ukrainian, Lithuanian, Polish or what not depending on the political or national agenda of who is involved in writing the article. Wikipedia has become a cesspit of carefully adjudicated fake history and fake narratives that infect even technology. I'm pretty sure that Saturn V will soon be shown to be directory inspired by the guy that put triangular fins on black powder rockets.

Just to touch on this briefly, the Lithuanian was Kazimierz Siemienowicz, who was a General in the Polish Army. He was quite accomplished in military rocketry and had written about his methods and applications (which may have caused his demise, too).
This page from Brown University has listings of his publications as well as a short bio:
Kazimierz Siemienowicz

By the way, NASA has a great timeline overview of rocketry from it's beginnings, to modern day (in .PDF form):
NASA (.gov) › atoms › filesPDF Rockets Educator Guide - NASA